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stranger
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stranger
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Does anyone have any information on this word, origin, etc? Haven't found it in the Archives of AWAD.
Thanks!
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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heres the oeds etymology entry for cock-sure: [According to the regular force of similar formations, e.g. stone-deaf, clay-cold, dog-sick, dirt-cheap, coal-black, etc., the sense ought to be ‘as sure as a cock’. The conjecture that there is some allusion to cockish, cocky, with reference to ‘pert self-confidence’, being founded upon the latest sense, which is only a modern development, is not historically tenable. The word was originally perfectly dignified, and habitually used in the most solemn connexions. And, in early use, the sureness in question was objective, i.e. ‘as secure, safe, certain, trustworthy, reliable, etc., as can be’: this makes it possible that the original reference may have been to the security or certainty of the action of a cock or tap in preventing the escape of liquor, or perhaps of a cock with a removable turning-key (if these go far enough back) in leaving the contents of a tun secure from interference.
The notion ‘as sure as a cock is to crow in the morning’, has also been suggested. It might suit sense 2, but not sense 1.]
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Joined: Apr 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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not much of any value be found anywhere, not even the OED.
"I have found it best not to be too cocksure of any etymology."
- ron o.
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Joined: Oct 2008
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stranger
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OP
stranger
Joined: Oct 2008
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Thanks for the replies on "cocksure".
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Joined: Feb 2008
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
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Well the OED is more likely to be right than I, but...
I would have thought the most likely orgin IS the notion of the strutting self-confident cockerel, which is not a modern idea but is at least as old as Chaucer's tale of Chanticleer and Perdelote around 8 centuries ago.
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Joined: Apr 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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yeahbut, sense 1 (see above), being the earliest, looks like this:
1. Absolutely secure, or safe, from danger or interference.
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Joined: Feb 2008
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Feb 2008
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yeahbut, sense 1 (see above), being the earliest, looks like this:
1. Absolutely secure, or safe, from danger or interference. Even if the OED is right and it doesn't refer to the bird, a more plausible explanation than the spigot or locking device would be that it is the opposite of the saying "to go off half-cocked," which refers to the firing of a musket and dates to about the time of the English Civil War in the mid 17th Century. To be cock-sure would be to be certain that the gun will fire because it is cocked properly.
Last edited by The Pook; 10/13/08 03:47 AM.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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again, the earliest senses predate those sorts of 'folk' etymologies. (16th C. CE)
I don't necessarily buy the spiel that Murray promulgated, but no one else seems to have come up with anything better over the years.
let's see what they come up with when they get to the Cs in the ongoing updates...
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Joined: Feb 2008
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old hand
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old hand
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Well, they had arqubuses with matchlocks in the 16th century in Europe so it's still possible.
I still reckon the bird is the most likely alternative though, and the spigot the least likely. IMO.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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The quality of the firearms of the day ensured that not even a firmly cocked one would guarantee that they would fire appropriately. You could get a flash in the pan or it could blow up in your face.
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