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Are there terms, with possibly nuances, to describe a person, who by all appearances is an honorable person, does or does not believe in God, but does not have a prayer or church life, but whose morality seems to be based on the legal system and that which is generally acceptable in society?
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Pooh-Bah
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dalehileman
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secular humanist is often used.
formerly known as etaoin...
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a deist (most of US "founding fathers" called them selves deist.. believed(to some degree) in god, but where not members of organized churches for the most part.
a mench (a yidish term) it mean a Man.. but idiomatically, it mean a good man.. a mench is the kind of guy that marries a widow with a kid or two, has some more, (adapts or doesn't) but treats all the children equally.. (loves, provides for them, leaves them an equal share in estate..--and mever mentions that or lets on that they aren't all his biological children (but on the other hand, encourages the kids to see and keep up with their biological grandparents/uncle/aunts/cousins--he walk the line.. (perfectly!))
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I don't know whether freethinker, for a practitioner of Freethought, comes close or not.
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Agree with etaoin, seculair humanist. seculair humanism Or a good Godless person, (if you want common words)
Last edited by BranShea; 06/14/2008 7:24 AM.
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Pooh-Bah
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Some old-fashioned terms would be
salt of the earth - often used of farmers, builders and other blue collar workers
upright - possibly a bit stiff with it
worthy or man of worth - ?a bit boring?
a good solid citizen - see worthy
honourable - implies that he has faced a test of that honour and won
dependable - and probably predictable
decent - a mench as above, "no movie star but pffft, what are looks"
please note, the above nuances are the opinions of the poster and may not reflect the views of this site or anyone on it.
PS welcome aboard shawnee
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I'm not sure 'secular humanist' quite fits the bill. That term describes someone who holds to a particular philosophy, but says nothing necessarily about their individual personal morality. There are also different kinds of secular humanist, viz optimistic and pessimistic humanist.
Perhaps 'Relativist' or 'Relative Moralist'?
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>'Relative Moralist'
Does not relativist come pretty close to opportunist?
Humanism is not just a philosophy. It's also a way of living.
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whose morality seems to be based on the legal system and that which is generally acceptable in society? Given these qualifications I might suggest the term "strawman" but since I object to this sort of back-handed definition in others I won't. I believe that human moral codes are a natural result of the evolution of a successful social species.
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>'Relative Moralist'
Does not relativist come pretty close to opportunist?
Humanism is not just a philosphy. It's also a way of living.
Perhaps, but it's a very broad description. We are talking specifically about secular humanism, not christian humanism, but even with that type of humanism there are many subsets. I wouldn't put relativist and opportunist as synonyms, no. A Relativist is someone who holds to the IDEOLOGY of Relatvism, ie, that there are no moral/legal/religious and/or epistemological absolutes. An opportunist can belong to any creed or belief system and is simply someone who is quick to take opportunities with both hands when they present themselves. Opportunist is an active word focusing on the doing of actions, whilst relativist is a more passive word describing beliefs or world view. Opportunist usually has a slightly pejorative edge to it also - the implication is that they take advantage of situations for their own gain, sometimes at the expense of others.
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I believe that human moral codes are a natural result of the evolution of a successful social species. Since we're saying what we believe in this context, I believe they aren't.
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I believe that human moral codes are a natural result of the evolution of a successful social species. My opine: The decay of human moral codes is the result of natural evolution.
Last edited by olly; 06/15/2008 11:51 PM. Reason: changed context
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I believe that human moral codes are a natural result of the evolution of a successful social species. My opine: The decay of human moral codes is the result of natural evolution. ...or devolution?
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I believe that human moral codes are a natural result of the evolution of a successful social species. My opine: The decay of human moral codes is the result of natural evolution. So, you believe that humans were originally "perfect" or lacking in "decay" or what? Sounds sort of Garden of Eden-ish!
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So, you believe that humans were originally "perfect" or lacking in "decay" or what? Sounds sort of Garden of Eden-ish!
I think devolution would indicate that is the case, However I think that some in society tend to follow their conscience which is eventually smoothed out or less inhibited due to constant bombardment. Take television for instance. Half naked swearing gun totin people fill our screens. Slowly it wears down peoples conscience like an emery wheel. To some kids, it becomes acceptable. What next? Why is'nt devolution de-evolution?
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I believe that human moral codes are a natural result of the evolution of a successful social species.
So, you believe that humans were originally "perfect" or lacking in "decay" or what? Sounds sort of Garden of Eden-ish!
I think devolution would indicate that is the case, However I think that some in society tend to follow their conscience which is eventually smoothed out or less inhibited due to constant bombardment. Take television for instance. Half naked swearing gun totin people fill our screens. Slowly it wears down peoples conscience like an emery wheel. To some kids, it becomes acceptable. What next? To me it makes no logical sense, and there is no empirical evidence for it, that human morals and law are "a natural result of the evolution of a successful social species." My opinion is that human morals and laws result from the fact that we have a God-given conscience that tells us there is such a thing as Right and Wrong. The categories of morality are nuanced by culture, but that there IS morality is intuitive and innate. That innate sense of morality is one thing that separates us from other social animals who are quite 'successful' without having laws and codes, so it's not something we "need" in an evolutionary sense. The only "need" we have arises from our imperfect nature, so that restraints have to be imposed on people to stop the whole world descending into anarchy and chaos. When law is removed, we end up with Mogadishu. But is this thread getting too off topic and metaphysical?
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>'Relative Moralist'
Does not relativist come pretty close to opportunist?
Humanism is not just a philosphy. It's also a way of living.
Perhaps, but it's a very broad description. Opportunist usually has a slightly pejorative edge to it also - the implication is that they take advantage of situations for their own gain, sometimes at the expense of others. An opportunist could excuse his ways by seeing himself as a relativist. I see a relativist and opportunist are not synonym, like you pointed out the differences. So we're back at word matters.
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My opinion is that human morals and laws result from the fact that we have a God-given conscience that tells us there is such a thing as Right and Wrong.
I don't see any empirical evidence for this view. Outside of cartoons and other forms of popular culture, I do not see little imps sitting on your left and right shoulders whispering into your ears that eating locusts is Right, but mixing linen and wool is Wrong. When one looks at the history of humans, one notices a great many contradictory ethical systems. To posit that one out these many is the one true one and all others are deliberate perversions which were created by people who willfully go against their conscience is a bit much to take, but then people's propensity for credulity is enormous.
But perhaps we are getting off topic and wandering in the field of anthropology.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I believe that human moral codes are a natural result of the evolution of a successful social species. Said Faldage with heavy irony. (Either that, or you're wearing a rose-tinted welding mask).
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I believe that human moral codes are a natural result of the evolution of a successful social species. If we ever meet a successful social species, we should adopt their moral codes at once! :-)
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To posit that one out these many is the one true one and all others are deliberate perversions which were created by people who willfully go against their conscience is a bit much to take... Which is precisely what I did not posit. but then people's propensity for credulity is enormous. yeah, look at all the people who uncritically accept the gospel of Richard Dawkins... But perhaps we are getting off topic and wandering in the field of anthropology. Agreed (and Theology too)... so we'd better stop.
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>so we'd better stop.
now that you've got a favorite shibboleth in...
-joe (it's always nice to claim that closing shot) friday
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>so we'd better stop.
now that you've got a favorite shibboleth in...
-joe (it's always nice to claim that closing shot) friday hee hee, that's sibboleth to you... 
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>so we'd better stop.
now that you've got a favorite shibboleth in...
-joe (it's always nice to claim that closing shot) friday hee hee, that's sibboleth to you... not to make light of your jest (well, okay, to denigrate the heck outta your weak japery), but OED has this meager entry for 'sibboleth': rare To speak with a special pronunciation. - joe (or meagre) friday
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Which is precisely what I did not posit.
Whew, that's a relief. So we are agreed then that it is to be the Manusmriti or the Highway (Route 66 id est).
yeah, look at all the people who uncritically accept the gospel of Richard Dawkins...
Old Man Strident? I find him at least as annoying as the intelligent designers [sic]. As a lapsed Jack Pastafarian, it's Russell's Celestial Tea Cup for me.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I believe that human moral codes are a natural result of the evolution of a successful social species. If we ever meet a successful social species, we should adopt their moral codes at once! :-) The moral code of a succesful social species is to herd aphids by the thousands in my apple tree. A had to do something very a-moral about it.
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'Aphids in my Apple Tree'
I'd read that book.
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Old Man Strident? I find him at least as annoying as the intelligent designers [sic]. As a lapsed Jack Pastafarian, it's Russell's Celestial Tea Cup for me.
I enjoyed The God Delusion.
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I enjoyed The God Delusion.
I sympathized with most of his thesis, but I did not enjoy reading it. Like, he's always at eleven.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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An Asymptotic assumption!
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I think our favorite peditum senex is saying that's where Dawkins's amp is set. I think it was The God Delusion I read, just to see if he really did say that Science could solve everything as was claimed by someone in the anti-Dawkins camp. Eleven sounds like a pretty good one word summation.
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Everyone knows intuitively that if you say something louder it becomes truer.
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peditum senexNow that's closer to the flavor of the English term. Whilst we're here, I should mention that there are two reconstructed PIE roots dealing with farts and farting: * pezd- ( A-H and Pokorny) 'to fart loudly' and perd- ( A-H and Pokorny) 'to fart'.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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But to say Dawkins is as annoying as the Intelligent Design camp is grossly overstating matters.
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But to say Dawkins is as annoying as the Intelligent Design camp is grossly overstating matters. Depends what annoys you I guess. But... 1. Is there such a thing as 'the Intelligent Design Camp' per se? 'Intelligent Design' is as broad a term as 'Theist' or 'Humanist' or 'Muslim'. I don't think it's that centralized. It includes people ranging from fundamentalist Christians to Agnostics. 2. Dawkins is only one person, whereas 'The Inteeligent Design Camp' are many. Even if he is only almost as annoying, that's quite an achievement for an individual.
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It all grates on the nerves, but Dawkins is grinding a better axe.
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Well have to agree to differ on that one.
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Perhaps Sagan is more to your taste? This is a great book.
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