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Pooh-Bah
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This week's theme: insults.
praetorian or pretorian (pree-TOR-ee-uhn) adjective
Corruptible; fraudulent.
Many of us too lazy to look it up will derive a meaning from usage. Until this very day I had assumed that it meant politically powerful. Wonder why
dalehileman
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The word has two meanings.
A praetor was an elected official. The meaning not given was "of or like a praetor".
The meaning given comes from the Praetorian Guard, a military / guard force established by Caesar Augustus and lasting till the time of Constantine. They were frequently involved in intrigues, palace coups, assassinations, etc. Their allegiance (or lack thereof) was rather essential to becoming and/or remaining Emperor.
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old hand
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Does it have anything to do with Pretoria, South Africa? When I was a kid we sang "We are marching to Pretoria, Pretoria, Pretoria...", but I had (and have!) no idea why we would march to Pretoria, or why we were happy about it (song ends with "hoo-ray!"). Anyone know? :0)
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Carpal Tunnel
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Pretoria was named for its founder's father. Their surname was Pretorius.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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old hand
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Pretoria was named for its founder's father. Their surname was Pretorius. Which I imagine was probably a Latin surname or nom de plume or academic name taken on sometime in the 15th to 17th centuries when it was fashionable so to do, especially by scholars. So indirectly, yes it does eventually come from Praetorian I would guess. Not being bothered to look it up myself, does the word have anything to do with pretend, pretentious, etc? Or is the Latin pretensio completely unrelated?
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pretend
Unlikely. Most think prętor comes from prae 'before' + itor (< eo, ire 'to go'), sort of like praesidens 'sitting in front'. Meillet suggest it may actually be an Etruscan loanword that got folk-etymologized. Pretorius is probably just the Dutch name Schout (cf. German Schul(t)z) latinized. (Maybe Bran can corroborate.)
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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schout This is about schout.  Perfect word to practise the sch -sound on and schout sounds like out as in about. But praetorian and pretend seem to have some connection: ? At least the falsehood methinks. Online Etymology- pretend: c.1380, "to profess or claim," from O.Fr. pretendre "to lay claim," from L. prętendere "stretch in front, put forward, allege," from prę- "before" + tendere "to stretch," from PIE base *ten- "to stretch" (see tend). Main modern sense of "feign, put forward a false claim" is recorded from 1412; the older sense of simply "to claim" is behind the string of royal pretenders (1697) in Eng. history. Meaning "to play, make believe" is recorded from 1865.
Last edited by BranShea; 06/07/2008 4:29 PM.
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is probably just the Dutch name Schout I'm very likely completely wrong, but didn't some people merely latinize the spelling rather than translate, e.g. most people seem to believe that Clavius' original name was Clau or Klau rather than Schlüssel for key (Latin clavis).
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I'm very likely completely wrong, but didn't some people merely latinize the spelling rather than translate, e.g. most people seem to believe that Clavius' original name was Clau or Klau rather than Schlüssel for key (Latin clavis).
Some Latinized the name. There's a famous German jurisprudentist whose name is Heineccius, which was probably just Heinecke with -ius. Not only Latin, but Greek, too; there are names like Neander (a couple of Germans, a theologian and a philologist) which is the Greek translation of German Neumann, and Melanchthon was originally called Schwarzerd. Katz is a common Ashkenazi surname, but it has nothing to do with German Katz 'cat', but rather is a Hebrew acronym כ״ץ (K.Tz.), short for kohen tzadeq 'righteous priest'. So, it depends, hence my slight qualification. I did a minimal googling and that's the best solution I came up with. Perhaps Branny knows if there is a Dutch word pretor that means something.
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Yes, dzjeem, pretor does have a meaning in Dutch, but it also comes from Latin. It can mean mayor or judge, but in older use it means 'schout'. pretor The third def. on the page gives landvoogd, meaning someone who runs an estate; also called 'schout' It is also used for some official function in church, chairman of a ring in the Ned. Reformed church. (?) The name Heineken is going around abundantly now with the European Soccer Championships on. Tonight the first Dutch performance against Italy. So the adepts will be watching over their piled up cases of.. 
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Thanks, Bran. The story one usually hears is that in 1811 Napoleon, who was currently in charge of the Low Countries, decreed that all families should have surnames, those being optional until that point. Lots of Dutch families choose surnames at that point. Names from occupations are common in many parts of Europe. In German, the Latin title major, literally 'bigger' (as in major domo), came to be the common surname Meier (many other spellings); this title is similar to the English one of steward which ultimately became the name of the royal house in England and Scotland. Schulz is a contraction of Schultheiß 'mayor; praetorius', the Schult being cognate with Dutch schout. I also ran across a 16th century, German theologian named Michael Praetorius whose German surname was Schulteis.
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Woewh, that's a lovely name to go on. He must have had a lot of friends. Oh, I see,it does not mean the same thing as schuldeis (Du)which means the demand for a debt to be payed off. What 's the English for a request for a debt to be payed? Can't think of a word.
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what is the english word for a debt to be paid?
well if you are Late paying, I might dun you
(collection agency's are commercial dunners.)
the standard language is to 'demand payment' (which sound harsh, but that the way it is..)
there might be other words.. (but among my many faults, i don't default--i alway pay my debts!)
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What 's the English for a request for a debt to be payed?
Not sure. We have a verb to dun which means to 'importune a debtor'.
Well, Dutch schuld, German Schuld 'blame, debt, fault, obligation', Old English scyld 'offense, fault, crime, guilt, sin; debt'. German Schultheiß is cognate with Old English scyldhęta 'enemy, foe' (in Medieval Latin scultetus[/i] 'bailiff', which is also a German surname, the latinified Schulz).
[Sorry to have mantled of troy partially while looking into medieval offices. I also see that Gothic has dulgahaitja for creditor at Lk 7:41, where the haitja is cognate with the -heiß in German and -haeta in Old English.]
Last edited by zmjezhd; 06/09/2008 9:03 PM.
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What 's the English for a request for a debt to be payed? Can't think of a word. At the risk of sounding simple, " to bill" is to send a request for payment, and to " call in" a debt is to ask for the full debt amount to be paid immediately (whereas a bill may be for only part of a debt). Does either one sound familiar? :0)
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To "call in" ,I think, covers the word "schuldeis" (noun) . Seems like there is not a noun equivalant for "call in" ?
Well, maybe "debt" simply covers it. Indeed a debt that is urgently called in.
Last edited by BranShea; 06/10/2008 10:20 AM.
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I have never heard the word dun used in that context, even though my dictionary does have the noun as 'an importunate creditor'. It must be almost completely archaic I think - I've never heard it used in normal speech. Modern words would be to 'bill' or demand an account. I've only ever heard dun used in modern English to mean a brown colour. In Australian English a sheisshausen is called a 'dunny'.
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I can remember my father using the word often enough - he had his own business(es) whilst I was growing up. I can't say that I've heard it recently though. and, the word can still be found in recent writing. - joe (Dun-haunted students. -Dickens) friday
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I also still hear "dunning notice" as a piece of mail from a collection agency.
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.... I also ran across a 16th century, German theologian named Michael Praetorius whose German surname was Schulteis. Nuncle, the Michael Praetorius (Schultze) I know was a composer. Among his most famous works is Terpsichore, of which I heard three dances on the radio just yesterday: the announcer prefaced the tunes by saying "Party like it's 1599!"
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M.P.His Father was a pastor, so 'nuncle' could have meant the father, who may have been of the same name. Must check out the family tree.  Ah!Found. Michael Praetorius was the son of Michael Schultze (Praetorius being a Latinization of the name). It does not say who Latinized first.
Last edited by BranShea; 06/10/2008 5:49 PM. Reason: subsearch
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the Michael Praetorius (Schultze) I know was a composer
Gracias, mi sobrina. It's a fine line between a theologian and a terpsichorean Komponist.
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