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From the Sunday book revieuws: "Forget the apple; Eve ,as the American journalist Dan Koeppel explains in his book Banana, The Fate of the Fruit that changed the World, was most probably seduced by the banana. According to Koeppels British collegue Peter Chapman, who wrote a book about the United Fruit Company - the firm that made the banana great - it wasn't a fig leaf Adam and Eve covered there shame with, but the leaf of a banana tree. Even Linnaeus, apples don't thrive in the Middle East, place the banana tree in the garden of Eden instead of the apple tree.Seems more logic. The fig leaf comes from a translation error; in Hebrew bananas are called ' figs of Eve'. (?) Compare the the deep forked fig leaf to the mini skirt seized banana leaf and what could be the most probable?" Two writers wrote a book about the influence of the banana culture on the the course of world history: http://www.bananabook.org/ http://www.amazon.com/Bananas-United-Fruit-Company-Shaped/dp/1841958816 ( the linker refuses to work so I leave the http's like this) What I would like to know, Is the story of the mistranslation true or untrue?.
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Dunno about the leaf, but the notion that the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil was an apple is relatively recent. I believe that pomegranate was an early candidate. I'm researching the fig leaf thing. Be back later.
Oh, and in a related story, I prefer "fruit flies like an apple" to "fruit flies like a banana." It better matches the "time flies like an arrow" part of the pair.
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Candidates for the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil (עץ הדעת טוב ורע `ets ha-da`ath tubh wara`) have been many, e.g., the fig, the pomegranate, grapes (by themselves or made into wine).
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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old hand
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The text doesn't say what kind of tree it was because that wasn't the point of the story. It had "knowlege of good and evil" fruit on it.
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So never mind the type of fruit.
But this:
Quote from the revieuw:
"The fig leaf comes from a translation error; in Hebrew bananas are called ' figs of Eve'. " I would like to know if that is based on any serious fact.
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in English, the review. so why the extraneous vowel? (you're not a clandestine Brit, are you? ; )
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(you're not an exuberant nitpicker, are you? ; )
I think it came out as blend of revue and review and some many mistakes I make over and over again.
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in English, the review. so why the extraneous vowel? (you're not a clandestine Brit, are you? ; ) Looks pretty Dutch to me.
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I don't know Hebrew, but the part about it having "more logic" is a misapplication of logic. We're talking about the Garden of Eden, not the earth as we know it now. Supposedly every kind of animal and plant thrived there, so it makes no sense to talk about apples not thriving in the middle east.
The bit about leaf size is also irrelevant. As the Pook says, it's not the point of the story. Besides, there were many, many plants available, and it is not stated, or implied, that the leaves they used to cover their nakedness were from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil, anyway, because it doesn't matter. :0)
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Still and all, it's interesting that we Western Culture types have come to refer to it as an apple. Or a napple, if you will.
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(you're not an exuberant nitpicker, are you? ; )
I think it came out as blend of revue and review and some many mistakes I make over and over again. Of course he is, otherwise he wouldn't be here! 
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I nosed around and found this: http://www.kolel.org/pages/5767/bereshit.html which I found to be very interesting; I think you'll enjoy it, Bran. I learned about a new fruit (etrog), among other things. As it says, the scripture does not name the fruit at all. :0)
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> etrog
now that's interesting.
:¬ )
formerly known as etaoin...
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We do thrive on crisp imagery, and an apple before, during, and after a bite is easy to imagine. I have no idea whether that has had anything to do with the popular adoption of the apple as the forbidden fruit.
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At one time I had the notion that it became the apple becauase the OE word æppel was a generic word for any kind of fruit. I also have a little note stuck to that entry in my Junk Drawer Memory® that says that's not correct. Not the bit about æppel being the word for any kind of fruit, but the bit about that being the reason for the Fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil being associated with the apple. Details are a little hazy but Nuncle z might shed some light on it.
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>The bit about leaf size is also irrelevantNothing is relevant as to the point of the story. I only still wished this part could be found by someone (Zmj?), because it seems such a total idiocy. "The fig leaf comes from a translation error; in Hebrew bananas are called ' figs of Eve'." I would like to know if that is based on any serious fact. Lost in space.... Nice page: the etrog rituals. I looked for more images: etrog images
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I dunno; it seems odd that the onliest ghit for "figs of Eve" is right here in this very thread.
-ron o.
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Maybe the Dutch reviewer ;- ) invented the whole thing to make the intro of her article more intriguing. I've got time now to do some searching.
Definitely the dummest thing I've done and I think a dead end street. From what I tried on a translation page with pronunciation, a banana in Hebrew is just a banana.
בננה
banana בָּנָנָה
????
Last edited by BranShea; 05/12/08 01:52 PM.
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Details are a little hazy ...
Of the two PIE roots *HebVl- and *meHlo-, the former is represented in 5 or maybe 6 branches (Celtic, Baltic, Slavic, Germanic, Italic/Oscan). The latter in, at least, Italic/Latin and Hellenic and just maybe in Hittite, where there's a bit of a mystery as to whether it means grapes, apples, or generically fruit. In all the other branches it seems to mean apple and somewhat generically fruit. Folk taxonomies are never exact, and as new species are discovered or introduced, old names get reused in interesting ways: e.g., apples of Hesperides are sometimes identified as oranges. Folktales abound involving apples, e.g., the apple of discord that starts the Trojan War.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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comparing apples and oranges again, jheem?
-ron o.
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I don't read Hebrew but it seems to be one word. Strong' Concordance suggests that the Hebrew word is "perhaps of foriegn derivation". Gesenius's Lexicon says "where the Indian fig, or Musa paradisiaca, Germ Paradies=feigenbaum, with large leaves is apparently meant". Musa paradisiaca is in the banana family but I think it's considered more of a plantain. Ancient writings and traditional translations thereof are not generally a great source of accurate biological data, e.g. whether hyraxes or coneys are unclean and what type of sea creature is chilazon - the source of the blue dye Tekhelet required for the tzitzit's fringe. If someone hadn't seen a banana and found an oblong fruit with soft flesh and lots of tiny seeds, they might class it as a fig (especially if they didn't want to introduce a foreign word - and then did Adam and Eve takest of the leaves of the tree-like pseudostem which hast long fruits that groweth in bunches like hands pointing upwards - oh, hell, I'll just say "fig"). I have some fish in my aquarium that were discovered in Myanmar about two years ago and were thought to be a type of rasbora because they looked similar to another fish that was thought to be a rasbora. They were exported to pet stores everywhere as "galaxy rasboras". After microscopic examination, they were officially declared to be a type of danio (a different sub-family) over a year ago but most are still sold as rasboras. Now, the identity of the other fish is in question as well.
Last edited by Myridon; 05/12/08 05:34 PM.
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FWIW, I contacted a friend at Bar-Ilan University and asked him about the term "Eve's fig" for banana, and here's what he had to say: Anyhow, I had never heard the term "te'enat Havva" before; but checking the standard dictionary of Modern Hebrew, Hammillon HeHadash, by Avraham Even-Shoshan, I discover that the term as "an accepted name for the banana." Reuben Alcalay's The Complete Hebrew English Dictionary also lists it but calls it obsolete. The word for fig is not plural but is the construct form which is kind of like a possessive case but on the possessed noun not the possessor.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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> comparing apples and oranges again, jheem?
It just needed that little push from collegues apparently to get to the final truth of the matter. I'm grateful for your combined special efforts. It may not be relevant as to the point of the tree-story; it is important for the word and more so, it restores my bit of faith in journalism.Thanks a lot!
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Hi - I'm the author of "Banana," the book which mentions the Hebrew/"Fig of Eve"/Banana/Eden translation (Mr. Chapman's book, as far as I know, doesn't discuss the issue, as it is a history - and a good history - of the United Fruit Company, and not of the fruit itself.) I appreciate the discussion here, as it added to my knowledge of the issue. If anyone is interested, here is one of my original sources: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0411/is_/ai_n8967470
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I'm not familiar with the history of bananas. Did those Bronze Age sheepherders even know about bananas? How long has [TEXT NOT REPRODUCIBLE IN ASCII] meant "banana" in Hebrew? Is it of ancient lineage or is it a modern creation?
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Hi- I'm neither a language expert nor have I great knowledge of bible texts . I've read the source text you gave the link to.
Then I picked up my old 1951 Dutch translation of Genesis, that gives only this:
(excuse crude translation in English)
After God has refused the sacrifice.
"And the Lord said to Cain: Why are you displeased and why is you face clouded? Might you not lift it up, if you act right?
But if you do not act right, sin lies waiting at the door and wants to get hold of you, though you must master it.
But Cain said to his brother Abel: (Let us go onto the field)
When now they were in the field, Cain stood up against his brother Abel and killed him."
Then God curses him and tells him he will be a fugitive and wanderer upon this earth. Then Cain says that his crime is too heavy to bear the punishment and God gives him the Cain's sign as a protection and he goes to the land Nod, East of Eeden.
Seems very plain compared to that source text.
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Pooh-Bah
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Hi Daniel
Fabulous to have the horse's mouth here to weigh in. (Neigh in?)
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