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I agree completely with Anu about the clumsy practice of creating verbs from nouns by adding "ize," but almost as bad are people who use nouns such as "impact" and "access" as verbs. The latest noun to suffer such misuse is "transition." Whatever happened to "move?"
Last edited by bilkirk; 04/21/2008 4:36 PM.
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Why do people hate verbing nouns so much? And why can't you talk about verbing nouns without using the noun verb as a verb?
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Why do people hate verbing nouns so much?
I've never figured this out. English has been doing it since at least the Middle English period (1100–1450).
And why can't you talk about verbing nouns without using the noun verb as a verb?
You can call them denominal verbs if, like me, you were so inclined. There are deadjectival verbs, too, and deverbal nouns.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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You can call them denominal verbs if, like me, you were so inclined. There are deadjectival verbs, too But then they might be confused with dead jectival verbs mightn't they? 
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The latest noun to suffer such misuse is "transition." Whatever happened to "move?" I don't object to 'verbing' nouns per se, but this seems to be a case of unnecessary obfuscation. It's like the amusing propensity of those police who can't seem to speak to the mass media without talking about "a deceased male person" when they mean "a dead man" or telling you they have "neutralized a potentially viable device" when they mean they defused a bomb. In my opinion good English usage avoids adding more syllables just to make your speech sound more impressive. Keep it simple unless the more exotic word actually adds meaning or emphasis. Only use a big word when a smaller word won't do. If you can use 'change' or 'move' to mean the same thing, then say 'change' or 'move' in preference to 'transition.' But there may be contexts where 'transition' conveys a sense that those words or other synonyms don't.
Last edited by The Pook; 04/22/2008 12:16 AM.
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But then they might be confused with dead jectival verbs mightn't they?
Was you ever bit by a dead bee? Yes, death jackals.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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You gotta be careful of dead bees...
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I agree completely that incentivize is an awkward, unnecessary word, when we have the perfectly good incent.
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incentivize Same with jeopard and jeopardize ( link).
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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You gotta be careful of dead bees... You're all right, ( link).
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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You gotta be careful of dead bees... You're all right, ( link). But can a dead jeopard change its spots? Or transitionize them even?
Last edited by The Pook; 04/22/2008 7:21 AM.
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OK, Nuncle. How long has -ize (or even that upstart, -ise) been productive in forming verbs from other parts of speech?
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How long has -ize (or even that upstart, -ise) been productive in forming verbs from other parts of speech?I'm not sure, but, according to MWDEU ( link). it started to annoy people in 1591 ( link). [Thomas Nashe] was none too politely tweaking the noses of his "reprehenders, whom he was apparently pleased to have nettled with his verb coinages ending in -ize. Ever since, it has been possible to raise hackles with newly coined verbs that end in this suffix." Seems to me younger than the verbed noun route.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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OK, Nuncle. How long has -ize (or even that upstart, -ise) British people believe it is -ize that is the American upstart, -ise being the British original. Whether that is true or not is irrelevant, since they will continue to believe it anyway! Americans are the greatest corrupters of the Queen's English you know!
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>Why do people hate verbing nouns so much?
Because verbing wierds language.;-)
J
Last edited by Deerhaven; 04/22/2008 1:44 PM.
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>Why do people hate verbing nouns so much?
Because verbing wierds language.;-)
J Weird is one of the weirdest words in the language I reckon. The longer you look at it the weirder it gets. Ironic statement really, because weird comes from the OE wyrd meaning 'destiny' or 'fate' - so to weird language could mean to destine it. Verbing shapes new words and therefore helps the language on to its new destiny. 
Last edited by The Pook; 04/22/2008 2:01 PM.
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you're weirding me out...
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Americans are the greatest corrupters of the Queen's English you know! We won; we have no queen; I will corruptize all I want...
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Americans are the greatest corrupters of the Queen's English you know! We won; we have no queen; I will corruptize all I want... We do have a Queen but no English, though we do the same thing; verbing and nouning is sort of a fashion. All things come to pass. (like f.i. bulldozeren)
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The one that really bothers me is the current use of the verb to grow. e.g. a plant grows - that's fine; a business grows - that's fine; but I am going to grow this business - that sounds terrible to my ears.
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if we don't grow our business, we're going to continue to office in this same small space.
-joe (cubicled) friday
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>Why do people hate verbing nouns so much?
Because verbing wierds language.;-)
J welcome, deer!
formerly known as etaoin...
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The one that really bothers me is the current use of the verb to grow. e.g. a plant grows - that's fine; a business grows - that's fine; but I am going to grow this business - that sounds terrible to my ears. Really? Why? "I am going to grow this business" may be overly optimistic or boastful, but it's not grammatically dodgy is it? I can't remember a time when it wasn't used that way. The OED defines it as both an intransitive and a transitive verb. There's nothing strange about it having an object. " v.t. produce (plants, fruit, wool, etc) by cultivation, bring forth, let (beard etc.), develop..." - quite appropriate to use for a business I would have thought? 
Last edited by The Pook; 04/22/2008 11:07 PM.
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What The Pook said.
If corn can grow and you can grow corn why can't you grow a business if a business can grow?
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British people believe it is -ize that is the American upstart
Weird lot those Britons. Especially when it comes to the mother tongue. The suffix -ize has a zed in the original Greek. BTW, the OED opted for the form -ize. Good enough for Mr Murray, and it's goodenough for me.
British English has no claim to being older than USan English or the Oz/Kiwi versions. The Cockney and the Queen are just as distant from Caedmon and Bede as I am.
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We do have a Queen but no English
Many Dutch speak English because it's easier on the throat pre-morning-coffee. Dutch and Hebrew are the international languages of love: all those velar, glottal, and pharyngeal fricatives. I have been mistaken for French, German, and Italian in the countries where those languages are spoken before I opened my mouth. The Netherlands is the only place where folks seem to speak to somebody they don't personally know in English. Weird.
[Fixed typo.]
Last edited by zmjezhd; 04/23/2008 1:48 PM.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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a zed in the original Greek I thought she was Canadian...
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Technically I concede that you are correct, but it still jars. Possibly this is a reflection of a generation gap as it is a relatively new use of the verb in this way, and I am just reacting against this type of business jargon.
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Possibly this is a reflection of a generation gap as it is a relatively new use of the verb in this way, That really is a big generation gap given that the OED has the first recorded instance of this sort of usage - "To cause to increase, to enlarge." dated at 1481. If you learned English before that, then I understand why it would seem relatively new to you.
Last edited by latishya; 04/23/2008 7:51 AM.
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It's pure indolence that makes the Dutch speak English.
So we won't have to help the English (and other foreigners) get on with "all those velar, glottal, and pharyngeal fricatives".
That's why foreigners hardly get a chance to learn it.
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Well, Janet, I firmly agree with you, and in fact put a big long harangue about that very phrase [shudder] on here somewhere, some time ago. Can't be bothered trying to find it, and certainly am not going to re-create it. But while a business can grow, it cannot be grown. [stamping foot e]
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But while a business can grow, it cannot be grown. [stamping foot e] Are you speaking grammatically or economically? If the former, that assertion has already been disproved. If the latter, why do businessess bother employing CEOs and Managing Directors and paying them millions to grow them? Are you arguing that a business grows randomly by itself, out of the control of its owners? That it may be said reflexively to grow by itself but may not be said passively to have been grown by someone? (groan!) Or are you saying you would like to use another word for grow when someone grows their business? Like expand or enlarge or diversify or horizontally integrate? Or are you just being a troublesome Confederate rebel? 
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>> Or are you just being a troublesome Confederate rebel?
Ho,hey! This reminds me of some of them confederates rebels or what you call them that have grown DEAR to me!(Groawn!)
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We do have a Queen but no English
The Netherlands is the only place where folks seem to speak to somebody they don't personally know in English. Weird.
[Fixed typo.] P.S. Post on this one: correctionWe speak English only to people we don't know. As soon as we know them we help them with all the fricatives there possibly are. There's a little book: Xenophobe's guide to the Dutch by Rodney Bolt. Pretty accurate. In sixty light pages you know all the good and the bads.And funny as well. (on checking the edition I see there is one Americans too, and one seperate for California (why?))It's time I bought the one about America I think. (No guide on Aussies.(Mr. Pook!)) I think it's about time I bought these two too.(24 in total) Guide : this
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I think culture as a verb needs some friendly users (usagers?) to help it get away from Petri dishes and oyster farms now and then.
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I would submit that in the phrase 'to grow something' AHD's first definition of the transitive verb, '[t]o cause to grow,' fits businesses better than it does tulips. The tulip grower does nothing to cause the tulips to grow. He merely sets up the conditions that allow the tulip to grow by themselves. A businessman puts a lot of effort into causing a business to grow.
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I would submit that in the phrase 'to grow something' AHD's first definition of the transitive verb, '[t]o cause to grow,' fits businesses better than it does tulips. The tulip grower does nothing to cause the tulips to grow. He merely sets up the conditions that allow the tulip to grow by themselves. A businessman puts a lot of effort into causing a business to grow. You think so? INTRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To increase in size by a natural process .Many companies do not grow by natural processes, as we may well be aware of these days. Yes, a lot of effort and artistry is put into causing artificial growth of businesses. Quick growth, quick sales, quick money. Who cares? TRANSITIVE VERB: 1. To cause to grow; raise: grow tulips. The tulip business, where a lot of effort is put into also, is threatened lately by the building maffs, who want the tulip raising business to move away so they can take the land behind the dunes for building luxury housing, stealing the last open parts in the already overpopulated West of the country. Ground that has the only type of soil tulips thrive on. (tulips don't grow by themselves unless they grow in in the wild in the Middle East)
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A businessman puts a lot of effort into causing a business to grow. Yeah, but--a business has to get money from somewhere; he can't make that money come in any more than a tulip grower can make the bulbs flower. Both call for setting up optimum conditions, and that's as far as it can go. (Other than illegally forcing someone to give money, which makes it likely the business will die at some point anyway.) And, Pookie--I don't care 'bout no grammar, here: it is WRONG to say grow a business! So quit baggin' me! [crossthreading e] 
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it is WRONG to say grow a business!
It is wrong to say it is wrong to say "to grow a business". It's one of the better turns of phrase associated with the business world. The metaphor works for me and Faldo. It doesn't for you. La!
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yeah, I'm afraid Jackie, that I like it, too. but then I like almost anything with the word "grow" in it! 
formerly known as etaoin...
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