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On the other hand, in tonal languages, without the right accent it must be almost impossible to communicate. In the case of tonal languages, I would say that this is not a case of having an "accent", because the tonal variations are what actually make up the language. In this case, having the wrong "accent" would be to speak the language incorrectly, an obvious problem for communication! :0)
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You claimed that accent is unimportant in communication. I will concede that I should have modified "unimportant" with "generally". Obviously there are situations in which an accent is so strong that the words are no longer pronounced in way comprehensible to some listeners, but I think (I repeat "think", not "know") that these situations are somewhat uncommon. :0)
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My mother is quite "dys-accent-al" (is there a word for that?). While there are a few accents she can manage quite well, she cannot understand anyone with an unfamiliar accent.
There is an ophthamologist in the same town who came from South Africa over 40 years ago and has the slightest "posh British" accent, but she can't understand most of what he says even though most of their conversations consist of eye exams - "is 1 better? or 2?", "what?", "1 or 2?", "what?", ...
A few weeks ago, she had to call Symantec's tech support line. The call took about two hours because the support rep had to spell a lot of words out a la "a as in apple, b as in banana, ..." after the first part of the conversation where they had to agree on the "alphabet"
Rep:"e as in eagle" (ih oz'n aygull)
Mom:"is that e as in egg? or a as in apple"
Rep:"e as in egg"
etc.
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tonal languages
English uses tone also. It's just that we do not use it phonemically. We use it sententially to indicate things such as questions, doubt, or emphasis.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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And sarcasm! I think tone is important for just about every language. Though non-verbal, ASL relies on tone conveyed through facial expressions and body stance.
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On the other hand, in tonal languages, without the right accent it must be almost impossible to communicate. I've heard of the existence of a Chinese language that has the same sounds as Mandarin but with different tones and that for a native Mandarin speaker it is totally incomprehnsible, but for someone who has learned Mandarin from a non-tonal language, in this case English, it was as comprehensible as Mandarin was. Which might mean ...not at all? 
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On the other hand, in tonal languages, without the right accent it must be almost impossible to communicate. In the case of tonal languages, I would say that this is not a case of having an "accent", because the tonal variations are what actually make up the language. In this case, having the wrong "accent" would be to speak the language incorrectly, an obvious problem for communication! :0) Yes. That's what I thought I said.
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On the other hand, in tonal languages, without the right accent it must be almost impossible to communicate. In the case of tonal languages, I would say that this is not a case of having an "accent", because the tonal variations are what actually make up the language. In this case, having the wrong "accent" would be to speak the language incorrectly, an obvious problem for communication! :0) Yes. That's what I thought I said. I was not disagreeing, just saying that it shouldn't really be called an accent, because I doubt they even exist in tonal languages, although I am no expert. Anyone want to be the expert? :0)
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because I doubt they even exist in tonal languages, although I am no expert
I suppose it depends on what you mean by accent. Many non-native speakers of Mandarin have what I would consider an accent. For example, a friend of mine from Canton has a noticeable Southern (Chinese) accent when he speaks Mandarin. He tends to replace x /ɕ/ and sh /ʂ/ with s /s/ and n /n/ with l /l/. He gets the tones right, though, Cantonese having 5 or 6 to Mandarin's 4.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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zmjezhd, you are quite correct about defining accent. It is more than just tonal variations. One that is common and sometimes confusing to new learners of Spanish is the ll. Many times it is taught as the same as a y in English, as in yellow: llama = yama. In many countries, especially in SA, however, you will find a sound more like sh or dj, or some combination in between: llama = djama. Neither one is "correct", as both are acceptable and comprehensible. To my ear, "yama" sounds more "gringo", for what that's worth. But then, I lived in Chile for a year, and they have charming regional accents, to the extent that native hispanohablantes sometimes guess that I am Chilean. Of course, if I really get going, I tend to use some give-away phrases, too! :0)
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the ll. Many times it is taught as the same as a y in English, as in yellow: llama = yama. The ellya is actually more like lyama than yama - it's just the 'l' version of the enya (ñ). But that's too hard for many English speakers to say, so they simplify it to yama. In many countries, especially in SA, however, you will find a sound more like sh or dj, or some combination in between: llama = djama. Or 'zh' or 'dzh'. In Argentina they say it like that. And maybe Uruguay?
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The ellya is actually more like lyama than yama - it's just the 'l' version of the enya (ñ). But that's too hard for many English speakers to say, so they simplify it to yama. They do use that pronunciation in a few areas, but in the US, anyway, you would never hear someone put any hint of /l/ in a word with "ll", nor would you be able to find anyone teaching it that way, nor any teaching resources that even mention it. Or 'zh' or 'dzh'. In Argentina they say it like that. And maybe Uruguay? Most probably they do! Most of SA uses some variation along those lines. The straight ll=y is taught because it is "standard", and easiest to say, as it's a frequently used phoneme in English, whereas all our mentioned variations are less familiar, and therefore less comfortable. :0)
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There is a phenomenon in Spanish called yeísmo (which contrasts with lleísmo). In the former, the phoneme /ʎ/, a palatal lateral approximant phoneme (similar to Italian <gl>, represented by the grapheme <ll>, is pronounced a a simple i griega <y> ( link). It is an important distinction between different regional varieties of Spanish. In Argentine (or Buenos Aires) Spanish, it is realized voiced post-alveolar fricative /ʒ/, though this is changing to a voiceless version /ʃ/. In other dialects it is voiced or voiceless affricates. In Catalan, it is mostly a /ʎ/.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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The critical period hypothesis is a hotly debated topic in second language learning. My understanding is that whatever else we disagree about, it is generally agreed that 1) it is generally harder for adults to learn an L2 than children, especially syntax and phonology, 2) it is not impossible for adults to master an L2, and 3) there is no hard cut-off point at puberty.
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I wonder if anyone has done any brain mapping of people speaking primary vs secondary languages. or of fluent vs non-fluent.
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brain mapping of people speaking primary vs secondary languages Wow, that would be cool!
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The acquisition of the first and later languages is highly complex. Some understanding of the brain mechanisms involved are seen in aphasics who have lost part of their faculties for language (from a stroke or other brain diseases). The pattern of recovery is also helpful and has been the subject of many published studies. For those interested, a short review is: A note on aphasia in bilingual patients: Pitres' and Ribot's laws. Eur Neurol 2005;54:127-131
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Wow, thanks, Dr. Pearce! I tried to find the article but could only find a brief abstract, which includes: Clinical studies have since shown that bilingual 'aphasics' do not necessarily manifest the same language disorders with the same degree of severity in both languages.
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J, I found it through Google[documents]: link but if you click the first (normal) Google result, when you get the abstract, you can click the 'full text' link.
Last edited by tsuwm; 03/31/2008 8:52 PM.
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Pooh-Bah
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Welcome Pearce, Thank you, I wondered of someone had been researching this area but was too lazy to go searching.
(Ta to tswm too.)
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