#16914
01/25/2001 3:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I am often confronted with people who do not grasp the ironic nature of an utterance. I have heard the term "irony deafness" used to describe this problem, and while accurate it is certainly unwieldy. How would you say this in a single word using Greek or Latin roots, or does anyone know any other synomyms that are appropriate?
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#16915
01/25/2001 3:26 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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tsuwm probably has it at the tip of his mouse, but some suggested Latin words to form a word (we really could use one) if necessary:
Irony
cavillatio -onis f. [raillery , jesting, irony]. Transf., [a quibbler].
dissimulatio -onis f. [a concealing , dissembling], esp. [of irony].
inlusio -onis f. [irony].
inversio -onis f. [irony; transposition; allegory].
ironia -ae f. [irony].
Deaf
obsurdesco -descere -dui [to become deaf; to turn a deaf ear].
surdaster -tra -trum [somewhat deaf].
surditas -atis f. [deafness].
surdus -a -um [deaf; unwilling to hear , insensible; not heard, still, silent]; of sounds, etc. [indistinct, faint].
tundo tundere tutudi tunsum and tusum [to thump , pound, strike repeatedly; to deafen, importune].
I would go for something like ironisurdity or inlusisurdity.
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#16916
01/25/2001 4:25 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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we all understand (and use) irony so well... there must be a word for this!
...but I don't know of one.
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#16917
01/25/2001 4:38 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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literal?-- i sometimes think people who don't understand irony are to literal-- the same people have trouble with idioms. you try to give them a head's up and they look at the ceiling!
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#16918
01/25/2001 5:02 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
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old hand
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In reply to:
i sometimes think people who don't understand irony are too literal--
Same goes for sarcasm... I would submit that whatever that filter is called, the people of whom we speak have theirs set on dim.
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#16919
01/25/2001 5:06 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I agree that people who often miss irony are often very direct, literal people.
One of my favorite movies, "Roxanne," has a great scene regarding irony deafness. Steve Martin is walking Daryl Hannah home in the small town where they both live, and it's a little chilly, so he asks if she would like to wear his coat. She replies, "No I think I'd rather just freeze to death" or something like that. He just looks at her blankly and then says, "You're being ironic! Oh, we haven't had irony here in YEARS!" like it was a consumer item. And of course he's being facetious himself. What a funny, witty movie.
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#16920
01/26/2001 4:02 AM
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looking a little deeper, I discovered that the modern Latin word used in rhetoric for irony is enantiosis...
how about enantiobsurdity
(also from rhetoric, asteism is a genteel® irony, a polite and ingenious mockery -- just the sort of stuff that goes down around here :)
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#16921
01/26/2001 7:30 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
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old hand
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During my stay in London, my best friend often called me square, when I failed to react to refined grades of irony. Of an other colleague, he said: he is so square as to be octagonal..
Later I had a very bright young lady technician who had the knack of feigning irony-deafness - the surest way to make your quips fall flat. How would you call that?
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#16922
01/26/2001 7:42 AM
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old hand
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old hand
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On the pattern of anesthesia etc. I propose anironia
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#16923
01/26/2001 11:10 AM
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Based on Faldage's excellent research, I would choose "cavillasurdaster", if only because it would totally floor anyone hearing it. I shall use it constantly from now on, particularly with my boss!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#16924
01/26/2001 1:26 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,981 |
>you try to give them a head's up and they look at the ceiling!
As would I. What is a "head's up", sounds a little rude?
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#16925
01/26/2001 2:00 PM
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jmh asks : What is a "head's up", sounds a little rude? It is a common expression in US, I heard it first years ago in a business context ... basically it is a hint or warning calling your attention to an impending matter For example a co-worker might say to you : "Thought you'd like a head's up : the boss is considering an earlier deadline for your project." Or the receptionist might ring your intercom and say "Head's Up! The Publisher has arrived and is on the way to the newsroom!" It can also be used in a sports context ... say you're playing a game with several people and you become distracted... a team mate might yell "head's Up" to warn that a play was in motion. Rather than being rude -- although I fully understand that it could be thought rude by someone not familiar with the saying -- it is a good thing! Does this make sense to you? If not I am sure others will hop in and clarify further. Head's Up all you AWARDtalk guys and gals!  wow
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#16926
01/26/2001 3:00 PM
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Bravo CapK for "cavillasurdaster". Certainly it is perfect to refer to the person suffering from the problem. Could we use "cavillasurdastery" for the problem itself?
I have to admit that I was not too happy with my original choices just because they didn't, in the words of the immortal xara, taste right.
Regarding feigning cavillasurdastery: That is cruel and unusual punishment but oh so effective. Surely there must be an effective counter strategy.
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#16927
01/26/2001 3:03 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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I propose anironiaGood choice, Werner. And putting your suggestion together with tsuwm's suggests anasteistic for those who do not suffer from genteel laughing gas 
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#16928
01/26/2001 3:52 PM
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absurd adds ab- as an intensifier to our root surdus in the sense of insufferable to the ear! I am really enamo(u)red with capturing this in the thing, so I would modify it slightly to cavillabsurdastery, and for feigning it I propose pseudocavillabsurdity.
/ca VIL ab sur DAS tery/?
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#16929
01/26/2001 4:03 PM
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I was provisionally working with /ca VIL ab SUR das try/ but I think I like /ca VIL ab sur DAS tery/ better. It evokes the feeling of dastard but leaves the perpetrator with plausible deniability.
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#16930
01/26/2001 7:07 PM
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ca VIL ab sur DAS tery
...but has the phatal phlaw that'll dis it for most: it gives little clue to what family of words it sits within...
...unless the intention is to reduce language to a code simply to exclude the outsiders, yo?
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#16931
01/26/2001 9:27 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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...unless the intention is to reduce language to a code simply to exclude the outsiders, yo?
And the word for that is jargon, homeboy mav.
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#16932
01/26/2001 9:54 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
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I discovered that the modern Latin word used in rhetoric for irony is enantiosis...Excellent question indeed, Alex! tsuwm, is the above word also one of the roots of my old fave enantiodromia, hence carrying a sense of reversal? Shame that it sounds so much like an embarrassing medical condition "My doctor prescribed irony tablets."
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#16933
01/26/2001 10:09 PM
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>is the above word also one of the roots of my old fave enantiodromia, hence carrying a sense of reversal?
yep, the Greek root can be rendered as enantios, opposite
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#16934
01/28/2001 6:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Oh if only I COULD prescribe irony tablets. In that context "irony" would perhaps be faux iron, like the not-real-chocolate found in McDonald's "chocolatly chip cookies." (Isn't it pathetic? The name only says that the substance is somehow similar to chocolate. Legalese on a cookie...)
RE: "I discovered that the modern Latin word used in rhetoric for irony is enantiosis..."
I guess then that "anenantiosis" could be used, but I am not sure that I like the sing-song effect. The politically correct term would be "enantiotically impaired" or better yet "enantiotically deprived."
Have you ever seen the list of words supposedly submitted for a contest in the New York Times, where the condition is you change a word by a single letter. Thus you can either add, change or delete any one letter, and then you provide the new definition for your word based on its new sound and/or spelling. One of my favorite words from that list was "sarchasm," which was described as the gulf of understanding between one who utters a sarcastic remark and the intended recipient who didn't grasp the irony.
The whole list was very clever. (Many of you probably contributed to it, come to think of it.) I'll see if I can dig it up from my files.
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#16935
01/29/2001 2:58 AM
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I don't really have an expression for this - perhaps "ironyclad" or "ironyproof"?
One thing I have noticed is that people who (a) don't understand irony, but (b) DO know what it is and who the people are who apt to use it, stare at you intently when you say something that they really aren't sure about. They sit with a half smile on their faces, frantically working out behind the smile whether or not your statement was intended to be ironic and if it was ironic was it aimed at them, and worst of all, was it poking the borax at them?
Does this sound like someone you know?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#16936
01/29/2001 4:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I found a list of those words from the contest, which is actually in the Washington Post. I'll post it as a new thread in the "Wordplay And Fun" area.
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#16937
01/30/2001 5:22 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
One thing I have noticed is that people who (a) don't understand irony, but (b) DO know what it is and who the people are who apt to use it, stare at you intently when you say something that they really aren't sure about.
Reminds me of one of my favourite remarks from Jane Austen:
Though nothing
could be more polite than Lady Middleton's behaviour to
Elinor and Marianne, she did not really like them at all.
Because they neither flattered herself nor her children,
she could not believe them good-natured; and because they
were fond of reading, she fancied them satirical: perhaps
without exactly knowing what it was to be satirical;
but THAT did not signify. It was censure in common use,
and easily given.
Sense and Sensibility Chapter 36
Bingley
Bingley
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#16938
01/30/2001 7:46 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
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old hand
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re: (Roxanne) "What a funny, witty movie."
Steve Martin - what a witty, funny guy. Have you USA'ns voted him a National Treasure yet? Do so post haste (please).
I remember seeing an old video of him from his early stand up days. In a 70 minute show he told 4 jokes!!!! In between times he played the banjo and walked around with a plastic arrow seemingly stuck through his head - and it was uproarious!! I ached for days from laughing too much.
stales
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#16939
01/30/2001 1:14 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Steve Martin occasionally writes for the magazine "The New Yorker" in the "Shouts and Murmurs" column. One of the funniest things I've ever read was his piece on the "Times New Roman Corporation" announcing a shortage of periods. The gist of it was to urge people to use alternative punctuation until the supply of periods could be replentished. One of the things that really cracked me up was that they had plenty of ellipses [?spelling? Alex wonders] but no periods. And of course the piece itself is written with but a single period, which is at the very end.
I'll see if I can find it and post it here.
One of the great things about Mr. Martin is that he is a master of both physical and intellectual comedy. It's so admirable that the same man who can write such funny columns can act so silly as well. Take for example the scene in "Roxanne" when he falls out of the tree and lands in front of a group of old ladies. To cover up his real reason for having been up in the tree he announces that he was abducted by aliens who came to earth to make love to older women "because they really knew what they were doing." He describes the aliens as having suction cups for feet, and proceeds to imitate them, walking around making pop! pop! pop! noises with his mouth. My eyes are actually watering with joy just to remember it.
It would be interesting to see Martin as a funny/witty character in a serious story, like maybe _Hamlet_. It's been years since I've seen it, but I thought Bill Murray was excellent in his remake of "The Razor's Edge."
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#16940
01/30/2001 5:45 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
One of the great things about Mr. Martin is that he is a master of both physical and intellectual comedy.
wonder if that's related to the (to me) unusual fact that his PhD is, quite literally, a doctorate of philosophy
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#16941
01/30/2001 10:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
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Head's up----is also used on the golf course, but there most people say "Fore" which means "look out", "watch out" or it is just a polite way that golfer's say "move". But my dad always said "head's up" when he was trying to get us kids to "pay attention" so, I guess "head's up" sound less rude to a co-worker than "Pay attention"!!!! enthusiast
enthusiast
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