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Language is often misunderstood to be a mere subject in thought; Language is that which encompasses all subjects, the power that is thought itself.
I seek approbation, disapprobation.
Last edited by Bohemian_Cur; 06/07/2007 7:00 AM.
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Welcome, BC (sorry--let me know if the shortening bothers you). Um--does a mere subject in thought have anything to do with Logwood's mentalese?
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Please, call me Kemp. No. What I meant to express is, as some rightfully consider English01 to be a subject in, say, a school, some wrongfully consider Language to be a subject in thought, as science or poetry is. Language, I defend, is not a subject, but the facility that gives thought—that which encompasses all subjects.
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You remind me of Benjamin Lee Whorf, whom I still consider a great linguist. He believed language determined thought, as well as thought effecting language. If you get a chance to read "Language, Thought, and Reality," I'm sure you'll enjoy it.
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If that is a compliment, I thank you. Former teachers tell me that I am a purist, a pedant, one who deals with language too seriously. I disagree: language cannot be dealt with too seriously; the more diligently one deals with language, the more defined they will become. I will find the book and peruse it.
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a purist? Oh, Dear! you might not be happy here.
this is like a sausage factory! we take language seriously, but we aren't purist.
there are some who shudder at nouns becoming verbs, and verbs becoming nouns.. and others who demonstrate that the particular noun or verb was first misused 200 or 300 years ago (and while it might be abdominable.. it's not new.)
Do we need words to think? i say no. but words and language allow us to share thoughts. newborn infants are able to express displeasure. but how much easier life is when, beignning age 2 or so, they can tell you what is wrong!
welcome Kemp and Nanu*2
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Language is often misunderstood to be a mere subject in thought; Language is that which encompasses all subjects, the power that is thought itself.
I seek approbation, disapprobation. Certainly an interesting proposition. Here's a comment on this subject from Language Log. Warning a somewhat longish download, particularly for those of us poor souls with dialup, but well worth the wait.
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Speaking of Benjamin Lee Whorf, I mentioned the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis on my last thread. I say, while there may be some truth in it, people do have a way of oversimplifying life, or the human mind...
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Do you think that all languages embody full communication? Or that all languages combined convery mastery of all concepts?
The problem is that not all concepts translate well from a specific language to another specific language. The words, the grammar, the structure, etc are tools used to convery concepts, but some which are not identified by word (either spoken or written). Within a given language group (ie, English) there are so many variations (color vrs colour, as a simple example) that to identify any single language as all encompassing. I can visualize things which I can not adequately describe to share...Language fails on many levels, no matter the mastery.
tempus edax rerum
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well, english as an advantage, its a thief! when there are idea's that we can't encapsulate in a single work, (and others have) we steal their word.
sometimes a word like amuk is softened down in meaning, other words like boondocks keep pretty close to orginal meaning.
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well, english as an advantage, its a thief! Not to mention a bastard! 
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well, english as an advantage, its a thief! when there are idea's that we can't encapsulate in a single work, (and others have) we steal their word.
sometimes a word like amuk is softened down in meaning, other words like boondocks keep pretty close to orginal meaning. The meanings of all words are in a continuous state of transition; words have no ultimate meanings they only serve a function. ~
Last edited by themilum; 06/11/2007 9:05 PM.
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Do you think that all languages embody full communication? Or that all languages combined convery mastery of all concepts?
The problem is that not all concepts translate well from a specific language to another specific language. The words, the grammar, the structure, etc are tools used to convery concepts, but some which are not identified by word (either spoken or written). Within a given language group (ie, English) there are so many variations (color vrs colour, as a simple example) that to identify any single language as all encompassing. I can visualize things which I can not adequately describe to share...Language fails on many levels, no matter the mastery. Language can't fail, Maven, only words can. No word in any language conveys the same exact meaning each time it is used; words can only approximate. And, as for that nebulous word "concept", yes, many concepts can not be expressed easily and succinctly in words other than the originating language, but many concepts are known by many of us that are not capsulized in any language. Agreed? _
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The use of language fails, perhaps would have been a better phrasing, but that implies that somehow language exists without use, or that communication occurs without language.
tempus edax rerum
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The use of language fails, perhaps would have been a better phrasing, but that implies that somehow language exists without use, or that communication occurs without language. Yes "the use of language fails" would have been nice phrasing but using that phrase would have semantically changed the meaning. And, of course, communication occurs without language; ever say "scat" to a cat?
Last edited by themilum; 06/12/2007 2:54 AM.
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well, english as an advantage, its a thief! when there are idea's that we can't encapsulate in a single work, (and others have) we steal their word.
sometimes a word like amuk is softened down in meaning, other words like boondocks keep pretty close to orginal meaning. Anne Curzan made exactly this point in yesterday's chat: "English is characterized by the massive amount of lexical/word borrowing that speakers have done over the centuries. (Although I think perhaps it is more appropriately called "stealing," as we don't seem to have any plans to return the words!)"
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Welcome, BC (sorry--let me know if the shortening bothers you). Um--does a mere subject in thought have anything to do with Logwood's mentalese? -Just in case she missed it Never could fathom why Jackie carries a can of that stuff around. Always afraid she is going to get snippy and start flinging it. 
Last edited by Aramis; 06/14/2007 7:37 PM.
ĹΓŞ╥┐↕§
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Ahem, sir. 'Ware, or I might start snipping you! (wink)
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What would it be? Jackie? A haircut or a manicure treatment? Slovenly Peter _____________________________________________ (cameo post 2.)
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My goodness, Branny! Wherever did you get that picture of Aramis?
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Yes.Kind of cute,I think. (You could also use it as an advertising board for the Snipping Shop of course.)  One more for the road; if you click Struwwelpeter Menu on that page, you will get delightful little horror stories for the educational benefit of little children. Both in German and English.
Last edited by BranShea; 06/15/2007 5:04 PM.
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Language is often misunderstood to be a mere subject in thought - I wonder who seriously defends such a thesis. The purported exclusivity smacks of a "straw man argument", which you then proceed easily to demolish.
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"Ho, ho, very funny. Ha ha; it is to laugh."
-Daffy Duck
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I concur! Language is a vehicle for communication, and without communication, we are all alone.
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Language is a vehicle for communication, and without communication, we are all alone. Can anyone spot the logical fallacy here?
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You mean, we can still talk to ourselves?
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Language is a vehicle for communication, and without communication, we are all alone. The implicit conclusion here is that without language we are all alone, but the unwarranted assumption is that language is the only vehicle for communication. Then there are some linguists who feel that one of the more important functions of language is to lie.
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Then there are some linguists who feel that one of the more important functions of language is to lie.Any pointers? I'd like to read some of them. There's even a fellow at UC Santa Cruz, John M. Ellis ( here's an interview), who does not think that language has anything to do with communication: see his Language, Thought, and Logic. Just plain weird. I blogged about it ( here and there) a while back. I read his Against Deconstruction earlier which made more sense.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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It all reads a bit philosophically to me.
Language is to thought as sound is to speech. they are both facets of the same thing. Ultimately......communication.
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The implicit conclusion here is that without language we are all alone, but the unwarranted assumption is that language is the only vehicle for communication.
Then there are some linguists who feel that one of the more important functions of language is to lie.
Yeeeah buddy; and some linguists play fun and games with blow-up dolls. What, you believe what a man says when he has already said that a prime function of language is to lie? And yes, I saw the news article with that silly construction somewhere on the net, but found it beyond amusement. 
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Any pointers? I'd like to read some of them.
. In the chapter "Word against Object" of his book "After Babel", George Steiner has the key phrase: Language is the main instrument of man's refusal to accept the world as it is , and argues at length for the importance of the counter-factual in Language.
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Thank you, Weis Bier. I'd've hated to have to have taken Nuncle on a tour of the morass that is my Junk Drawer Memory®.
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In the chapter "Word against Object" of his book "After Babel", George Steiner
Thank you very much. I must reread After Babel. It's been simply too many decades.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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The social lie is a critical aspect of society. If you don't think so, try being completely honest with your co-workers. The problem is assuming that communication is based on something infallible--and since it's all based on human constructs, perfection is unrealistic.
tempus edax rerum
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try being completely honest with your co-workers - no problem, as long as you limit yourself to the sympathetic co-workers :). And sympathy is something that can be expressed without much in the way of words.
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The meanings of all words are in a continuous state of transition;
words have no ultimate meanings they only serve a function. ~
The social lie is a critical aspect of society. If you don't think so, try being completely honest with your co-workers. The problem is assuming that communication is based on something infallible--and since it's all based on human constructs, perfection is unrealistic. In the chapter "Word against Object" of his book "After Babel", George Steiner has the key phrase: Language is the main instrument of man's refusal to accept the world as it is , and argues at length for the importance of the counter-factual in Language. All, crimethink. Language is innocent, and with an innate capacity for infinite beauty. The beauty of languages is in their forms and meanings, independent of their function, whether grammatical or informational. Language is honest, but its use isn't always honest. Rather than a refusal to accept an imperfect world, language is, besides an artifact of inherent beauty, a resource for making a "more perfect" (mutatis mutandi) world.
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Now really boys, put down your books and think. The advandage of language lies only in the accurate communication of progressive and sequential cause-and-effect events which postively effect the continuance of the breeding group. And watch your semantics; "lies" are not "lies" if used for the purpose of instruction or example, and if - and it is a pretty big "if" - there are no semantical conflicts with objective reality, meaning: the objective reality percieved by our senses which are doubled-checked by the congruence of language. Otherwise you guys rock.
Last edited by themilum; 06/21/2007 3:18 AM.
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The advandage of language lies only in the accurate communication of progressive and sequential cause-and-effect events ...
You oughta know about that.
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The advandage of language lies only in the accurate communication of progressive and sequential cause-and-effect events ...
You oughta know about that. Bother to explain yourself, Faldage, otherwise the casual viewer of this board might think that you are being snide simply because you have nothing to add to the subject under discussion.
Last edited by themilum; 06/21/2007 12:06 PM.
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