#16591
01/24/2001 3:29 PM
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Can anyone who uses both of these words tell me the difference between them? I have asked some realtime Anglophones (as opposed to US'nphones) but they have all been too long here in the wilderness* to remember the difference. I even asked a King Singer once with no success.
*They have been here so long that even I can hear their thick American accents.
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#16592
01/24/2001 4:29 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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here's what I think about 'whilst': in American it's considered an archaic form of while, in the sense of "in the meantime" or "sometimes"; in British it is considered to be a formal form of while...  -- etymologies of whilst say from "whiles".
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#16593
01/24/2001 4:43 PM
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In reply to:
in British it is considered to be a formal form of while..
I never thought of it as formal form of while-- just a word use in UK that is not use in US (and unsure about rest of world. )
I worked for Xerox, and our documentation for equipment was written in UK-- it would have lines like
"Whilst holding the nut with a spanner..." These caused problems, since about 50% of tech's where not native speaker of English-- we had the usual poliglot of nationalities, and languages-- including one (native) Farsi speaker.
Having the word spanner-- not wrench in the sentance-- with whilst-- was just too much!
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#16594
01/24/2001 4:45 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 1,055
old hand
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old hand
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While has many other meanings besides the whilst / in the midst of one, which is not true of whilst. For example the noun meaning of while, i.e. a period of time (e.g. abide the while) and the verb ('to while away my time'), etc.
I've often heard this usage...
'Whilst (while) I go to the shops to look around, she goes on for one of her spending sprees'.
It doesn't seem to take on the conjunctive role here, I think. Maybe it's just wrong. I'm eager to hear from the veterans.
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#16595
01/24/2001 5:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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B-y, I believe you are close to what I think. To me, while is a more generic term with broader application, whereas whilst refers to a specific act, process or event, maybe going on right then and there.
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#16596
01/24/2001 8:07 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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A "spanner" is a very specific type of wrench, if it wasn't refered to as such, my Dad would have been all over them (like a wet noodle). He was a tech rep for 20 years "there", and a mechanic for 20 years before.
Does anyone else know the phrase "like a wet noodle"?
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#16597
01/24/2001 8:51 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
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addict
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Does anyone else know the phrase "like a wet noodle"?
I've never heard it used in the sense you used it. I've heard of someone being sentenced to "50 lashes with a wet noodle" and never really had the sense that it meant anything at all. Would love to understand it, if it does mean anything.
To describe being all over someone, I'm fond of the phrase "like a cheap suit in the rain."
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#16598
01/24/2001 9:00 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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yes a spanner is an open end wrench-- at xerox we used metric ones-- (and the directions did mention a 10mm spanner...) I would user plain wrench for an open ended wrench-- and a modifier for someother type-- a pipe wrench or a "monkey wrench"-- which is a very large adjustable wrench--(say a 4 inch pipe wrench--)
Here in NY, we use wet noodles to "flog" people. So a user who calls help desk and states "I deleted all these files, by mistake-- can you restore?" get told "Fifty lashes with a wet noodle! Of course- we can-- give a a few minutes, hours, days (as appopriate)." Its a sort of friendly empty threat-- or a mild punishment.
(user who call and complain that files have mysteriously disappeared-- or blame us-- when they are at fault-- do not get such friendly punishment.-but they too, get there files back--)
a Wet Noodle flog is punishment when people feel guilty for doing something wrong (deleting files) but are easy to work with since they are honest, and admit that what happened was their mistake--.
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#16599
01/24/2001 9:07 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
Does anyone else know the phrase "like a wet noodle"?
and In reply to:
like a cheap suit in the rain.
as i stated in NY, wet Noodle is used differently, but to be all over someone-- that could be a thread of its own
I think of
to be all over them...
...like white on rice.
or
...like flies on shit.
but i am sure there will soon be 1000 more!---
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#16600
01/24/2001 9:07 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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I, too, have heard the phrase "all over someone like a cheap suit", but not in the rain. I have heard it mistakenly said to mean "passionately caressing" by an Ozzie in a dictionary he was making to explain Americanisms to Ozzies.
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#16601
01/24/2001 9:24 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
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addict
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I, too, have heard the phrase "all over someone like a cheap suit", but not in the rain. I have heard it mistakenly said to mean "passionately caressing"
I've heard this usage in the US.
like white on rice
I had forgotten this one - my new favorite.
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#16602
01/24/2001 9:30 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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>mistakenly said to mean "passionately caressing"
probably due to some cheap imitation of a Mickey Spillaine thriller or the following Kiss lyric:
I saw my picture hangin' on her wall
She cut it out of that magazine
It was a hot day, she wore lingerie
And nothin' else in between, ooh
She had long hair and thigh high snake skin boots
And she was all over me like a cheap suit
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#16603
01/25/2001 2:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
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Yes "like a wet noodle" is used a lot. "Limp as a wet noodle", "moves like a wet noodle", and when actually boiling noodles I guess you are supposed to test them by throwing one against the wall---if it sticks to the wall--it is done. (I just boil the noodles for 8 minutes)"Like a wet noodle" is used also to describe someone or something who cannot stand up, either phisically or lacking in assertiveness. enthusiast
enthusiast
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#16604
01/25/2001 2:04 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
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 Also "Like a wet noodle" can also mean draped. Which is what is meant by "all over them like a wet noodle" Or just plain and simple "on their case"
enthusiast
enthusiast
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#16605
01/25/2001 2:18 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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bikermom comments, anent cooking pasta: I guess you are supposed to test them by throwing one against the wall
I suppose if your goal is pasta that sticks to the wall. Personally I taste a few as the time draws near.
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#16606
01/25/2001 2:21 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 771
old hand
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old hand
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...stink on a monkey!
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#16607
01/25/2001 2:39 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Over this side of the pond, spanner is the much more common term. They are differentiated as open s-, ring s-, box s-, adjustable s-, tab s-, etc. The only thing that is usually called a wrench is the very large adjustable spanner with spring loading, known here as a "Stillson Wrench" or usually just as a Stillson. (maybe that only has one "l")
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#16608
01/25/2001 3:48 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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I have come to think that this while/whilst thing is just another case of the Anglophon()es twitting the poor US'ns. They don't come clean here I'mo go back to using the "M" word.
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#16609
01/25/2001 4:49 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
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Actually as mom of two boys, I have enough sticking to my walls----the noodles get there somehow and I don't even have to throw them. As for testing----if they're not stiff or burnt, they must be done--hopefully I get to them before the water is boiled off.
enthusiast
enthusiast
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#16610
01/25/2001 9:25 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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My dad, not noted for his culinary skills, used to say
"When it's black it's done!"
Later, my son adapted it to "When the smoke detector goes off, it's ready."
All who are reading this are at liberty to use when/if the occasion arises.
wow
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#16611
01/25/2001 9:41 PM
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wow mentions: "When it's black it's done!"
and adds "When the smoke detector goes off, it's ready."
Sounds like the logical extreme of my "When you can smell it, it's ready."
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#16612
01/25/2001 10:00 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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I believe the nail has been hit squarely on the head already... There is no such thing as (or at least standard of) formality that is specifically US's... ... yer 'Merican aintcha (Is that the M word?)... Let the stink on the monkey fade! You ain't gonna get it to shake a tower... 
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#16613
01/25/2001 11:29 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Let the stink on the monkey fade! You ain't gonna get it to shake a towerWhat about the stink on the funky maid? And could you get her to take a shower?
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#16614
01/26/2001 11:41 AM
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Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Faldage declared, stoutly no doubt: I have come to think that this while/whilst thing is just another case of the Anglophon()es twitting the poor US'ns. They don't come clean here I'mo go back to using the "M" word.
I don't think it is a dig at Americans, personally. "Whilst" may have once been the formal initial "While", but now it is rarely used in anything I read which has been written recently. I suspect that it's a word which is simply falling into obsolescence as words will. One English teacher I had at school once said that it was a word frequently used by those whose grasp of the language was less than firm to convince their readers that this was not the case.
I don't know if this is true or not, and I couldn't find anything to confirm or deny his view.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#16615
01/26/2001 12:56 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I think each country has its share of obsolete terms. I wasn't aware until this thread that whilst was obsolete, any more so than most people in the USA would think that there was anything strange about the word "gotten".
Even the word "folks" is really only in general use in the sense of "old folks" I always found "that's all folks" at the end of cartoons designed for children a little strange.
I will happily say to the children, "just stay in the car whilst I pop into the post office". Whilst I wouldn't say, as has been discussed:
"I could whilst away the hours
conferrin' with the flowers
consultin' with the rain." if only had a brain!
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#16616
01/26/2001 12:58 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I'd call a monkey wrench a monkey wrench but a spanner a spanner.
By the way - how does anyone kill Dr Black with a spanner in Cluedo whilst in the conservatory if you don't have spanners! Solve that one!!!
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#16617
01/26/2001 1:03 PM
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But our Game of Clue-- there isn't a spanner-- there is a wrench! and nobody in US does anything "whilst" any where!
But watch out for the maid, she was seen carrying a large candle stick in the parlor!
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#16618
01/26/2001 1:23 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>a large candle stick in the parlor!
Is there really a parlour (or are you joking?), now that really is an archaic term, next time you'll be telling me that you put your clothes in a closet!
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#16619
01/26/2001 2:03 PM
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yes, there is a parlor (Parlour) and while that is a bit old fashioned-- it is a term still used by grandparents-- and in formal houses. (i have a living room-- if i had a larger house, i might have a family room, or rec room, and a living room, but my nana had a Front parlor.) and my ex's grandmother had a parlor too. so my kids got used to calling great grandma's living room a parlor-- (for a while my daughter thought a parlor was a living room with out a tv!)
and yes, i do keep my clothes in closets! I wish i had more closets! I have an armoire-- but it doesn't have space for hang things-- it has shelves and drawers. I am a clothes horse so i have lots of clothes-- i also have a shoe cubby-- a small cabinet just for storing shoes (36 pairs) Where else would i have my clothes?
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#16620
01/26/2001 2:36 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Jo contibutes: "just stay in the car whilst I pop into the post office"
Which is getting to the point of my question. Thank you, Jo. Now, would you say "just stay in the car while I pop into the post office"? If not, why not?
PS
As those of you who are at all interested at this point already know Ænigma thinks whilst is a whim.
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#16621
01/26/2001 3:05 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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Posts: 1,289 |
Parlor
The parlor, in the USA, is indeed an archaic vestige of the olden days when a ceremonial room was needed, even in the smallest houses. In a city house, or a town house or row house, however you call it, this was usually the room at the front facing the street. It contained formal furniture, upholstered in black horsehair in Victorian times, a small center table, and a piano. Unless someone had to practice on the piano, it was entered only once a week, to dust. It was used only when the parson called, and for funerals, and therefore was not heated except on those occasions, the door being shut and the curtains drawn nearly all the time. In old neighborhoods hereabouts, this customs still survives. Old people still don't use the front room (which is generally what they call it now, although there are still some who call it the parlor) exacept to entertain visitors, even though they live in a house 9 feet wide with only 3 rooms and a kitchen on the ground floor.
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#16622
01/26/2001 3:07 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Several generations of my family, from Michigan, Ohio, and Indiana, have always used "folks." I was unaware that the term was unusual elsewhere. "Folks" is used to refer to people generally, or to specify parents. In the early years of my marriage, I was caught between being uncomfortable addressing my in-laws by first name (since they had never indicated to me that I should) or addressing them by honorific and surname (which I was sure would offend them as well, as inappropriately formal and distant), and finally settled on addressing them not at all if I could avoid it, or when unavoidable (such as in the greeting in a letter), as "folks."
Parlors definitely remain. In current practice hereabouts, a formal room at the front of the house, usually smallish compared to the great room or family room, is often called the parlor.
And, oh yes, closets! Practically the biggest concern of a homebuyer is how many closets, and how big? What other terms are there for built-in enclosed storage areas?
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#16623
01/26/2001 3:31 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>And, oh yes, closets! Practically the biggest concern of a homebuyer is how many closets, and how big? What other terms are there for built-in enclosed storage areas?
>Where else would i have my clothes?
As far as I know definitely not in a closet, although I remember them being much discussed in Pride and Prejudice & Sense and Sensibility, so they must have been stored there within living memory.
We have wardrobes, either great big wooden wardrobes or modern/retro fitted wardrobe built into the room. Cupboards are also used for clothes, some are freestanding but some were built as part of the house, especially those strangely shaped cupboards under the stairs Harry Potter's address in book 1 is "The Cupboard Under The Stairs".
In Edinburgh (and probably elsewhere in Scotland for all I know), there are cupboards called presses. The ones that I have seen have doors like the internal doors of the house and are not very deep, maybe about as deep as a chimney breast.
My father talks about the house where he grew up having a parlour in the way described previously, it was dusted but never used. He now considers this to be ridiculous as there were three children in the house and very little space but supposes that it was a matter of "pride" (and very probably prejudice). I can't say that I have ever seen a parlour (or a closet) mentioned in an estate agents, it all sounds a bit "Merchant Ivory" to me!
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#16624
01/26/2001 3:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>Which is getting to the point of my question. Thank you, Jo. Now, would you say "just stay in the car while I pop into the post office"? If not, why not?
The answer is yes, I would.
The reason? I don't think I would choose to say either (or even either note minor pronunciation difference). It would just come out of my mouth, in the same way that most everyday language does. I'd say that it was on a "whim" but it doesn't even reach that level of consciousness!
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#16625
01/26/2001 3:45 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In with the dishes or in with the food??? And clothes on top or beneath???
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#16626
01/26/2001 3:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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We really do need a resident linguist on this board. [sighing resignedly emoticon]
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#16627
01/26/2001 4:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Thank God--finally, posts that talk about the way we live, and that are focused on LANGUAGE! Thank you, jmh, of troy, Faldage, Sparteye, and Bob, from the bottom of my heart. ========================================================= Bob, your description of a parlor matches exactly my understanding of what one is, from "Anne of Green Gables". My aunt on the farm had a front room, but no closets. I would not keep my clothes in a cupboard: those are for storing food, if one doesn't have a pantry! Though even that word is going out of use around here: most people say cabinet, as in: "Look in the third cabinet, and you'll see the spices". My friend in Pittsburgh, though, says cupboard for kitchen cabinet.
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#16628
01/26/2001 4:04 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In US a wardrobe is a collection of clothes-- (i have a large wardrobe--I own over 20 skirts!) and occationally would be used by grandparents to define an Armoire-- a large free standing piece of furnature to hang clothes in.
cupboards-- is used (but pronounces closer to cub birds)--but mostly cabinet is used (i have new cabinets in the kitchen, ie,) and a free standing kitchen cabinet might be a hooser-- a cabinet with short legs, (6 to 8 inches) topped with a storage space behind 2 doors- on top of that, two deep drawers. Then there would be a work surface-- sometimes covered in tin. above the work surface, some more cabinets-- shallower then the ones below-- Some hoosers had one cabinet above, and to one side, a large built in bin to store flour-- at the bottom of the bin-- a built in sifter-- the sifter would deliver the flour to the work surface. the whole thing would be about 5 foot high-- sometimes a little higher-- but never more than 6 feet high-- and about 3 feet wide, with a depth of about 20 to 24 inches. They could be very ornate-- with fancy glass in the panels on the doors of the upper cabinet.
Old ones are very popular now-- and very expensive!
If you are lucky-- you might have a pantry in your kitchen-- or near it-- Like the cooler WoW mentioned in an other thread, it was a large (floor to ceiling) area-- sometimes big enough to walk in--with shelves for storing dishes, and food items. Country homes often had a root celler too, (my first house had an old Coal room-- from when the house was heated with coal- it had been retro fitted with a gas fired boiler (for steam heat))
Estate house's(mansions) would have a butlers pantry-- a room half way between kitchen and dining room (sometime part of the passageway/hall way between the rooms) that has many shelfs for dishes, serving pieces, silverware.
I heard of a press-- and knew it to mean a kind of closet-- but i never hear the word used here-- (press is a verb-- to iron, and Presser would be a person who has the job of ironing (say at a large commercial laundry).
Under my stair way is a trianglar storage area-- its a closet--of course! I keep my brooms, and mops, and cleaning stuff in a broom closet, too.
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#16629
01/26/2001 4:09 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>In with the dishes or in with the food??? And clothes on top or beneath???
No, no, no. My food cupboards are in the kitchen, the rest of the cupboards are dotted around the house.
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#16630
01/26/2001 4:11 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
maybe about as deep as a chimney breast.
I knew exactly what you meant-- but i don't think the space would every be defined that way in US-- Well not in NY for sure!
in many of the older house's in NE, and NY, you'd try to avoid having clothes near the chimney-- since the unlined chimneys would leak creasote-- NYC houses, tended to have coal fires-- less creasote-- but all the walls near chimney of ex's grandparents house had stains.
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