#16452
01/23/2001 12:56 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96 |
This one is for today's teachers to observe or to answer. My gifted, exchange student, also intelligent with computers, told me, "Why should today's kids care" When I asked, "What do you mean?" He said "Because there is no hope for the future!!!" What have you teachers observed?? I have 17 and 10 year olds sons also, and they are very much excited about life and all it has to offer. The statement from this kid is rather scary, if most kids are thinking this way. I think there is more to do today than when I was in school during the 60's and 70's.
enthusiast
enthusiast
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#16453
01/24/2001 4:47 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2000
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As a former English teacher who is now running the rat race of corporate IT politics, I recall the dismay I felt from many of my students who often displayed a general lack of desire to pursue anything. Often, I would hear comments that they have (had) nothing to do and that they were bored. As a new father (9 month old daughter), I often wonder what experiences I can control (and those I can not) that will shape my daughters imagination and desire to seek opportunities to improve herself, mentally, physically, and spiritually.
Having taught in several rural (bedroom/farm) communities and several upper-middle class and upper class schools, I often ran across students who often claimed a lack of hope for the future, and several who were so self-defeated they wanted to climb back into their hiding spots so they didn't have to deal with it all. One scenario: In a rural community (many farms, no industry), I was in a 400 student high school, grades 9-12. One 9th grader asked why I was there. I replied that I was studying his teacher's methodology, process and procedure. I then asked him what he might want to do after graduation. Pondering for a moment, he deadpanned, "Mom and Dad will be around for awhile and after that there's my sister." As fate would have it, he in fact graduated and returned to his parent's home to work on a local farm and a nearby grocery store, never desiring anything more.
Though this is only one student's story among the hundreds I was involved with, I was continually amazed that so many of them felt degrees of hopelessness and despair wondering what they were going do after graduation. I always took this as an opportunity to share my breadth of academic (undergrad + grad), athletic (high school, collegiate, & professional), fraternal, entrepreneurial, and social experiences that have given me a tremendous amount of knowledge on many different subjects that I would not have received in any other fashion. I can only hope that they were able to see that life is about so many different things than just getting a paycheck to pay for a roof and some food.
I agree that kids have more to do today than at any other time in history, but most don't know what to do with it. Many are scared at the enormity of it all. (The more you know, the more you realize you don't know!) Hopefully, they have parents to guide and shelter them from things to allow them to succeed in several things to build confidence that will allow them to explore.
So many thoughts and so little time to discuss them all. More to follow....
Enjoy!
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#16454
01/24/2001 5:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96 |
"I always took this as an opportunity to share my breadth of academic (undergrad + grad), athletic (high school, collegiate, & professional), fraternal, entrepreneurial, and social experiences that have given me a tremendous amount of knowledge on many different subjects that I would not have received in any other fashion. I can only hope that they were able to see that life is about so many different things than just getting a paycheck to pay for a roof and some food."
Thanks botman, for the wonderful reply to my question about today's kids. Your statement above that I added to this post, is what separates the good teachers from the average. You are indeed one of the Great Ones. Real life experiences and stories are what kids need to hear over and over, to erase what the media puts into their heads. Your daughter will do excellent--I do not have a college degree, rec'd F's in math until 9th grade and now I love teaching and emphasize with those students who struggle to learn but put forth 100% effort. Welcome aboard to the AWAD word site where learning never stops.
enthusiast
enthusiast
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#16455
01/24/2001 10:43 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2 |
Thanks for the kind words- what is frustrating is that I felt "marked" while in the public schools. What I'm referring to is that my department heads and colleagues would support my teaching style and my knowledge base but I consistently into problems with the administration- they hounded me to frustration and I eventually left teaching to pursue other interests. They wanted me to conform to their drab style and "stick to the basics", though when I did, my students revolted. Against the administration's wishes and to the dismay of my department heads, I often taught my own way regardless. Though it created havoc during my reviews, I felt it necessary to teach my students knowledge, not just have them absorb, regurgitate, and purge information.
This is only one example among many why so many students are turned off by learning- it is not relevant and is too slow to occupy their nimble minds. Sometimes the very nature of our compulsory education system turns off students who would otherwise blossom in an alternative program. I do not want to imply that our education system has not attempted to nuture these "fringe" students, rather, I suggest the system is much too slow in addressing their needs.
I desperately miss the students, though there are some I'd be willing to forget. Though I am often engaged in technical training initiatives, it does not replace the classroom experience.
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#16456
01/25/2001 3:06 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Botman-- don't dispar-- you might have reached one or two students-- and given to them a lesson they will remember forever--
When i was in 7th grade-- our class was introduced to pi-- and told to just accept the number 3.1214.... but we where antsy kids and some of us (guess who?) just keep nagging and nagging--
So one morning we were promised, if behaved, then in the afternoon we could do a special project–
Just before we where dismissed for lunch-- we where given an assignment-- one half of the class was told to bring back something round-- a jar, a can, a pipe, a hoop (for a hoop skirt)-- the other half of the class was told to bring back to thread, or ribbon, or twine, or rope..
That afternoon, 78 girls measured (using ribbon or twine, and then a 12 inch ruler) an assorted collection of jars and cans (38 pairs)--the circumference and the diameter-- and divided. Our crude answers where then averaged-- and lo and behold-- we came up with pi!
Teachers who think of creative ways to teach– open children's imaginations...
It is almost 40 years since I learned pi– but the lesson is as fresh as yesterday.
If you can do for language, what Mother Theresa did for me and pi–you will live on in a students memory!
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#16457
01/25/2001 5:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96 |
 Thanks, of Troy, for the beautiful inspirational words for many a teacher. It is too bad that more Administrators can not see this, and also Board Members, but maybe they do, but just get caught up with all the red tape. Maybe Bush would like a copy of this for his School Reform Policy????
enthusiast
enthusiast
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#16458
11/22/2001 2:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
About botman's comment on the conformity of standards in education:
Standards are currently mandated in many states. The trick is to teach them yet use all the creativity you can muster to make your teaching dazzle. The best teachers are often dramatic and often extraordinary in the questions they pose and their ability to inspire students to pose equally interesting questions.
One of the best I ever had was one who admitted his errors in judgment, and showed us how a miscalcution had led to revelelations.
When the spirit is full of life, intelligence, creativity, and broad comprehension of how various mental inclincations express (and can be impressed by) subject matter and questions, there walks a strong teacher. But, better than that, is the scaffolding of exchange of ideas in an active classroom. The whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
It is extremely disenheartening to meet discouraged students, but it's far from being a hopeless situation--just a challenging one.
Best regards,
WW, a kid lover
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#16459
04/23/2002 1:51 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 184
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#16460
04/23/2002 2:15 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
I think competition shouldn't be taught or supported in schools. Society (aside from the educational *experience) promotes it enough. I'm not talking about athletics or personal physical development.
Private schools may show a better scoring student, but IMHO, one who has a either a lot of unresolved social issues or no *reason to develop further. It's hard to generalize, as you know.
Voucher systems, if they are to make sense, should then allow public schools to *start charging (the same amount of) tuition so they may work from or at least begin working toward the same playing field. Once that playing field becomes *level (ha) there will be no need for 'voucher' systems.
What do you feel the 'voucher' represents?
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#16461
04/23/2002 2:25 PM
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Posts: 184
member
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#16462
04/23/2002 2:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96 |
The voucher system is great, if there are other schools nearby, both private and public, that your child can attend. Or if you can move to an area near the school of your choice. However, when parents live in an isolated and/or poor area, miles away from another school, there is no other option. Abeit, to spend hours in the car transporting your child back and forth. Is this what you think is ideal? I still think that parents who are involved in their kid lives, their school, their friends, and interact with their children when at home, have children who succeed no matter what. But again, if you push a child in an area that is not his learning style, but your learning and your dream, then it is a struggle. Listen, be open, look at homework, (guide them, provide resources, but don't do the work) they will blossom. And above all, remember, a teacher can only present the material, it is up to the child to listen, be curious, and to think. We all have to learn we have to do things we do not like----the child should be free to express his opinion, either to the teacher and\or to his parents. The parents should not criticize a teacher, because teaching material to a class of mostly unmotivated, listless stones, is not easy, and neither is it easy to teach a class of disruptive, whining, complaining kids who strive for attention of the wrong kind. And this is what we are creating by parents both working and\or divorcing themselves from family, home and shifting the blame on everyone else but themselves. Kids are the most important resouce and their parents are the best teachers for values, beliefs, guidance and self-esteem. Be a good mentor, set a good example however you want them to be--and they will echo your values. Set your priorities---and things will work out OK.
enthusiast
enthusiast
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#16463
04/23/2002 4:47 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 5,400 |
an other problem i see with a voucher system, is, public schools are required to accept everybody.
Your child is blind? --public school must provide a program.
Your child has an accident, or is in some way handicapped, and needs to use a wheel chair, (short term or long term)? public schools must make transportation and facilities available.
private schools? they get to pick and choose.. they can require all kids to be ambulatory, they can require parents get involved.. they don't have to have copies of braile textbooks, or other tools to meet a special childs needs..
but they do want to take public money, and then not really offer to meet the publics needs.. Like Musick, I am all for vouchers if there is a level playing field.. but if private schools get to take the easy students, and leave behind anyone who requires just a little (or maybe a lot!) of assistance to be able to meet their full potential.. not fair, and not right, and not legal!
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#16464
04/23/2002 8:47 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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...that the parents got a check from the stateWhat does this 'voucher' money represent? Isn't public education a benefit of being a US citizen, usually 'free' (I'm sure someone will provide the specific "words"). Do you get a check for not going to a public school? Kinda like getting a refund for taxes you shouldn't have to pay, but already have? Why don't they just reduce the amount of tax charged, assuming they can figure out how much school costs!  Why would anyone take their check and give it to a public school?  To bring this into a *somewhat word related discussion, what is actually® being 'vouched' for? [devil's advocate-e] hi, tsuwm
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#16465
04/24/2002 9:25 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Edinburgh has in the last couple of years abolished the "assisted places scheme". This was a scheme where brighter pupils could apply for a grant to go to one of the many independent schools. The result, as far as I can see, was to bolster the results of the independent schools, by extracting many of the more able and better supported children from the state sector. This had the effect of making the results (we have league tables, based on examination results) for the state schools look even worse and making more parents keen to raft their children out. I suspect that the voucher system that you describe would have a similar effect. In the UK in general there are very many excellent state schools. The problems tend to arise in places like London and the South East and Edinburgh where there is a long history of take up of independent sector places. In Edinburgh many of the state school buildings are poorly built and lack facilities - the school that my children could attend does not have a playing field, level or otherwise. I don't have any evidence of the children from independent schools in Edinburgh being any "less rounded", to my surprise, quite the opposite. There was an interesting article in the Guardian last week which claimed that many of the results from state schools in London are skewed by parents paying for tutors to improve their children's results. I tend to agree with this as I have often heard my "professional but liberal" friends in London discussing where to find a good tutor, my "professional and less liberal friends" spend their time comparing independent school results. http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,5500,680734,00.html It stikes me that, much as I dislike it, the "level playing" field concept works against the laws of human nature, where people are in favour of it until it starts to cause problems for the future levels of achievement of their own children and they have to put their hands in their pocket. There was a report yesterday that some pupils were moving back into the state sector as Oxford and Cambridge were committed to increasing their intake of state school pupils, it remains to be seen if this will have a long-term impact. {I'll add a link to this news story if I find it.)
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#16466
04/24/2002 6:54 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 184
member
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member
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#16467
04/25/2002 2:40 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
WW notes, "Standards are currently mandated in many states."
In Maryland, not only are standards mandated, but the legislature (the biggest collection of useless pinheads on the face of the planet) has also, imitating other states, mandated tests at various levels (3rd grade, 8th grade, 11th grade, I believe) to check on the schools' performance in teaching the mandated content. This has resulted in the phenomenon of "teaching to the test". In order to have students score as high as possible, teachers, with the support (nay, the direction) of principals, spend their time teaching only what will be covered by the tests, so as to have maximum time to cram the kids for the test. Anything not expected to be on the test is rigorously excluded, as taking up valuable time for no good end.
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#16468
04/25/2002 3:51 AM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094 |
Just a thought,
I don't think the argument in the US against vouchers really has much to do with giving students state money to go elsewhere or that it will make situations uneven. The main problem people have with it is that almost every private school in the US is affiliated with a religious organization, generally the Catholic church I believe (at least most are around Cinci) and that raises the question of that wall between church and state. It's perceived by many (and not unjustifiably so) that giving students money to spend at a religious private school results in the state funding a religious organization, because obviously the funding they get isn't only spent on education.
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#16469
04/25/2002 3:54 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
...And, no Musick, people couldn't use the check for something else thus the term "voucher".
No, ewein. You've misinterpreted if you think that was my intent. What I said was, "Why would anyone take their check and give it to a public school?(EA) Plus I added a "laugh" at the end. (Another emoticon bites the dust)
Jazz - Thanks for clearing things up for us.
However, being religious and going to a religious school are two clearly different things, and the mass (all puns intended) support from far reaching organizations (such as *religious ones) are clearly offering many advantages, and I believe this is the bigger issue. The church and state are as seperate as the people within seperate them, and the arguement of "seperation of church and state" is convenient for *'freedom loving people', but inherently flawed for those that actually do divide the church from their *state.
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#16470
04/25/2002 8:56 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 184
member
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member
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#16471
04/25/2002 10:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yes, Jazzo, Catholic parochial school are a big group of private schools.. but only in the North east..and in NY, there are almost as many yeshiva schools--and comming up quickly, are islamic schools. Not to mention, at least on the elementary level, many other striped of christianity, Luthern, baptist, and jehovahs witnesses come to mind, but i expect there are plenty of others.
and yes, that is an issue.. should public money go to parochial schools.
which reminds me.. parochial1) of or in a parish or parishes; 2) restricted to a small area or scope, narrow, limited, provincial( a parochial outlook).
I attended a catholic elementary school, and public HS, and let me tell you, catholic schools are often parochial in the second sense, sometime even more than in the first sense of the word.
religious schools have a seperate agenda, aside from education and it is their first priority.
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#16472
04/26/2002 7:05 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
> independent schools, catholic schools
Here, we don't have the same anxiety about the separation between church and state and (as discussed, elsewhere) have a lower proportion of the population who describe themselves as religious.
There are a relatively small number of independent (ie fully private) Roman Catholic schools in the UK (88 RC, cf 524 CofE out of 1271 listed [url]www.iscis.uk.net/[url]). The rest come under the banner of the state system and have to subscribe to the same National Curriculum and school inspection system as other state schools.
In England the vast majority of state-supported Roman Catholic are "voluntary aided schools", like Church of England Schools, as the state pays broadly 100% of tuition costs, 85% of external building costs. In Scotland, I think, they are fully funded.
I think that times have moved on from the "Anglela's Ashes" days of a few sadistic nuns venting their dislike of the human race on their charges. I did come across a couple of those as a schoolgirl but as post "swinging sixties" children we found them faintly anachronistic and paid them little attention. Discussions on morality and religion were wide ranging and we were encouraged to say what we thought.
In recent years, we moved around the country and I have experience of several Catholic schools. What I saw were schools with children drawn from all demoninations teaching a curriculum which left very little time for the specifics of Catholicism in a religious curriculum which was broadly Christian but included project work on all belief systems. In one English school, in particular, I remember that aspects of religious pratice had to be taught outside school time in church, not school, premises (eg preparation for First Communion). Some schools shared a sixth form (for pupils aged 17/18) with a neighbouring Church of England Schools. I had no experience of the schools operating to a different agenda than mainstream schools, they were no less racially mixed, for example. The main difference was that all parents subscribed to the view that good behaviour in school is important. This is not universal, I understand from some teacher friends that some parents give very little support on behavioural matters and that this is one of the reasons that RC and CofE schools in middle class areas tend to be over-subscribed.
I suppose the main argument against religious schools arises from the creation of a sectarian society as exists in Northern Ireland and parts of the West of Scotland. I had no personal experience of this, growing up in the North West of England, we mixed freely with children from other kinds of schools without being aware of any cultural divide. I was appalled by a recent television programme where people from both sides of the "troubles" in Northern Ireland were sent away together on a team-building week. It was the first time that some of them had made a relationship with someone from the "other side" and the first time that they were able to listen to another point of view without it coming second hand. They were amazed to discover the depth of their own lack of understanding of another point of view, which makes me wonder what on earth they are teaching in schools and churches. This seems incredably sad and must be addressed.
So, on the subject of church schools, the jury is still out for me. My personal experience of happy schools with happy non-judgemental children seems at odds with the experience in other parts of the world.
Does anyone have recent experience of RC schools in the USA, Canada, Australia or New Zealand?
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#16473
04/26/2002 7:36 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,981 |
>I think the competition would make the public schools better. Maybe I am just dreaming, though! As an antidote to my experience of education in the UK which has generally been good (partly by chance and the fact I have been lucky in where I lived). There is another side to the difficulties faced by teachers in the UK: In some areas, competing academically is the least of the problems faced by teachers. See this report of crime by minors in Peckam, London where the trial of Damilola Taylor did not result in any convictions yesterday. There are reports that the area was controlled by a teenage mafia who describe themselves as the "untouchables". They are so well aquainted with the way that the criminal justice system works that they can be caught but rarely can any action be taken against them. The death of Damilola Taylor prompted the police, Southwark council and the other agencies in the deprived south London area of Peckham to take a long, hard look at themselves. They were shocked by what they found.
For a start, the youth crime figures were startling. From November 2000 when Damilola died to the following November, 4,228 offences were reported in the borough of Southwark - which includes Peckham - when both victim and perpetrator were under 18. Children as young as eight were bullying or carrying out street robberies.
Little had been done to try to find out what young, disaffected youths wanted or needed. Facilities for young people in the area were inadequate. Gang culture was poorly understood. The way problem youngsters were dealt with was unsatisfactory. The various agencies - police, social services, education - were simply not pulling together.http://guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,2763,690785,00.html
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#16474
04/26/2002 1:58 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
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Posts: 96 |
You got that right Helen. Parochial schools are very narrow minded, and it is not just the Catholic ones. Having attented one for 9 years, I do know----Education should definitely be foremost in the schools agenda--but sadly it is not--Politics and higher salaries take first preference. And there again--the old saying applies---"It is not how much you got that counts--it is how well you use what you have"--that creates inginuity, creativity and therefore, enhances the learning experiences into one more well-rounded. ALL kids will grow up to be someone who is in charge of us over 50 generation---so it is up to us to stop the power plays and selfish attitudes and talk equality nation wide
enthusiast
enthusiast
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#16475
04/26/2002 4:24 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
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Posts: 1,526 |
Life is not fair. Harrison Bergeron should be required reading.
When public schools are not living up to their commitments, good parents have an obligation to look after their own kids first. I'm lucky. My own kids' public school is pretty good so far. But a major factor in our move to this area was the quality of schools.
The very biggest problem to education is parents who aren't involved. I do my own part plus. And I'm grateful that there are other options available to at least a few of those who are failed by their own public schools.
I think vouchers should be expanded to cover homeschoolers.
k
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#16476
04/26/2002 6:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yes, Life is not fair... and a job of democratic society, (not government!) is to help redress inequities.
i too moved to the area i live, so my children could walk to their school.. In NYC any child can go to any NYC school, provided there is room.
preference is give to local kids, but any spare seats are up for grabs by anyone.
so, some kids who live in queens, take the LI RR every morning with Mommy, and go to school a few blocks from where she works..
This makes is very easy for her to attend open school meeting, school plays, and to get to school quickly, should one of her children become ill.
School kids make up a big part of the "rush hour" commute.
its easy for us, (we tend here to be educated, and middle class-- we do all have computers or access to them) but many parents aren't.
Their income isn't sufficient to buy/rent a place to live with a nice schools (good school districts tend to have higher property values-)
There jobs often come with less (or no!) than 1 weeks paid vacation --so getting to school for activities is not easy.
In NY --and else where-- language is a barrier..parents often don't speak english, or know cultural expectations.. and (it border on racist to say) but not all cultures value education -- many do, but not all.. or they value other things more...
So a family gathering might be more important than school-- even if it on a Tuesday night.. and kids might be at a party till 10 or 11 pm.
Or a new dress or suit for a religious rite might be more important than paper, workbooks, or pencils.. so a child might not have the basic tools to do simple homework.
Or being a wife and mother might be seen as the ultimate goal for a girl-- so what does education matter?
schools teach more than the 3 R's, they also teach cultural values.. (and that is a can of worms in US, that standardized testing reflects middle class, norther european cultural values, more than other cultural values.)
Are there things wrong with some of these cultural values? yes.. but for the most part they include valuing educations, the arts (more is taught about european art than world art... but its a start), industry (and yes, this can have negative environmental effects), representative government -- more or less democratic.. (again, not always perfectly, but generally democratic) Altruism is values as well ( in some cultures, adopting children is unthinkable.. parent won't release them for adoption, and it doesn't matter cause others would never think to adopt) Civic pride is also valued
(de Toqueville made fun of it, but every little town in US has some claim to fame!)-- and towns people have organizations like the Elks, or Rotary clubs that support children's activities like little league, or they support charities, or they buy equipment for volunteer fire departments.
Other societies value family over civic/political -- Families live in enclaves, and keep everything in the family.
Carnegie (and the Rockefellers, and the Harringtons, and the Morgan's, and the Vanderbilt's, and Gugenhiems, and , and) have given billions to people of US; museums, libraries, concert halls, universities, hospitals, etc. Societies that do not value civic/political life do not generally do this..
are they bad? no, but are they what i want for my country? no. because if family are valued and political life is not, there isn't going to be anyone to run a democratic government.. and we won't have one!
so, to some degree, it doesn't matter that family A values family life... there kids still need to go to school
and family B, that want to spend their money on religious rites, go ahead.. but your child need to have the basics.. and need to attend school
and family C, guess what? we are going to educate your daughters, and your sons.. equally.
and by the way, we do also value family life, and we do value religious life, and we do values mothers and children!
Public schools are propaganda! they teach the American (or English or Ozzie, or what ever) way of life!
a failure of a public school is not just a problem for a child-- it a problem for all of us! and since they do have that public/governmental functions, governments should pay for them.. and the money should go to making sure kids share these values!
(i think of my self as a liberal.. but every once in a while, there is this streak-- that sounds down right conserative!-- beyond conservative!)
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#16477
04/26/2002 7:52 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96 |
and by the way, we do also value family life, and we do value religious life, and we do values mothers and children!
Public schools are propaganda! they teach the American (or English or Ozzie, or what ever) way of life!
>>>a failure of a public school is not just a problem for a child-- it a problem for all of us! and since they do have that public/governmental functions, governments should pay for them.. and the money should go to making sure kids share these values<<<<
Well said--I read your very long post. Are you on a school board? You should be. So once again, I think we should go back to the basics---and perhaps redefine basics. EVERY CHILD and EVERY ADULT needs the basic reading knowledge, math knowledge, speaking and writing skills. These are pretty elementary And every child WANTS to learn these. That's not the problem. But what is lacking in today's society, is caring, understanding, compromise, going the extra mile for free these create the desire and the curiousity to learn and to learn more.
I think teacher's should be paid on a national scale, so that all 1st grade--first year teachers get the same salary, and all 10th grade 15 year teachers get the same etc etc. This would eliminate teachers leaving for higher pay, even though they like the kids and the area---Perhaps this consistancy would pinpoint problem areas and/or make it easier for problems to be caught early. We are all Americans, no matter what state we live in and no matter what economic level we are in or what kind of housing we live in--in fact it is not the kids fault that some families get to live in a 200,000. house and some kids get to live in a 15,000 house or worse or perhaps even better. All the kids in the USA will be our future leaders and will either contribute or destroy their area or another area. So do we want positive contributors and leaders in the US or do we want Negative thinkers, contributors and leaders in this US-----The choice is ours and it starts with todays kids ----birth to 20 and up.
enthusiast
enthusiast
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#16478
04/27/2002 1:00 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773 |
Well - look who came in from the cold! Welcome back, bikermom. Where ya been?
The national scale payment system is an intriguing idea, but there are several problems with it, beginning with the fact that schools are a state issue, and so there are at least 50 different systems for funding and regulation. Then there is the difference in the cost of living. A salary which would be luxurious in Michigan or Iowa might barely be a living wage in a large coastal city like New York or San Francisco. I think that part of the problem in some of the discussions we've had previously about teacher salaries is different perceptions of what is needed in a given economic area.
I don't know if I'm ignorant or deluded, but I have no significant complaints about the educational services provided to my children. Are there things I'd like to change if given the magic wand? Sure. But still, despite disabilities they are each learning fairly well, and are happy doing it. My older son, who is hyperactive and autistic, gets the usual academic instruction, plus physical and language therapy, and social skills training. In the summer, he attends a program - paid for by the school system, including the transportation - which maintains his social and physical skills through things like horseback riding and field trips. His art teacher is so good that three of her students in one AI class of about 8 have already had works accepted for state-wide or national exhibition.
Michigan has a voucher system, and there is a private academy available to us, indeed, it is physically nearer than the public schools, but we have no need of it because the public schools are providing as much and more than the private academy would. I suspect that I would consider the academy if my child was both academically gifted and nondisabled, and that does make me wonder at the drain on the basic level of student from the public schools, but in the end, I think that the freedom of parents to chose between the schools helps maintain the levels of all the institutions. That, indeed, is the premise underlying a competitive economy.
My biggest complaint with the school system is that second languages have not been introduced until well after the prime time for children to learn languages. When I was in school, the first opportunity to learn even a smidgeon of a foreign language was in junior high (7th or 8th grade; ages 12-13-14 for most kids). It seems that schools are exposing children to foreign languages a bit sooner now, but still, since the best years are the early years, it would be nice to start them right away through TV classes.
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#16479
04/27/2002 8:57 PM
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 163
member
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Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 163 |
So many things to comment on...
1. Musick: What do you mean by, "one who has a either a lot of unresolved social issues or no *reason to develop further"
I don't know that people that go to private schools have any more unresolved issues than others and I'm not clear on what the "no reason to develop further" means.
2. of Troy wrote, "but they do want to take public money, and then not really offer to meet the publics needs.."
Actually, many private schools do not want to take money for just that reason, they do not want the government to dictate what or how they should teach beyond meeting provincial standards. As to meeting all of the public's needs, no one school can do that. Most larger cities in Canada have schools for the arts. Obviously, such a school could discriminate against a whole variety of people. They system has to meet the needs of society, every individual school cannot.
Some school boards are allowing the creation of public schools that meet particular needs. For example in Surrey, (a suburb of Vancouver, BC) a "traditional" school was set up. In this case, traditional meant desks in rows, spelling and math drills, and uniforms. The uniforms I believe were just grey pants with a green shirt. The BC Teacher's Federation said the school would be discriminatory, restrictive, cater to the more well-off, and not be progressive. Further, they said that none of there members should accept transfers to the school. Unfortunately, parents started camping out days in advance so they could register their children at this public school.
3. Bobyoungbalt wrote: "mandated tests at various levels (3rd grade, 8th grade, 11th grade, I believe) to check on the schools' performance in teaching the mandated content. This has resulted in the phenomenon of "teaching to the test". In order to have students score as high as possible, teachers, with the support (nay, the direction) of principals, spend their time teaching only what will be covered by the tests, so as to have maximum time to cram the kids for the test. Anything not expected to be on the test is rigorously excluded, as taking up valuable time for no good end.
Ontario has gone this route as well, but the idea of teaching to the test is not new. When I was in high school I wrote the American SAT's just out of curiosity. I couldn't imagine how they could be of much use. Multiple-choice tests in English and math are not the best measure of a student's ability. Do U.S. high school teachers not spend considerable amounts of time teaching to these tests? Not all such testing has to be negative, Quebec has had provincial exams for the last two years of high school since at least the 1940's (they involved both multiple-choice and essay questions). My mother said she always liked the Provincial exams because she was being marked by someone who didn't know who she was and so the mark she got was based solely on her work.
4. Several comments made about religious schools, in particular Catholic ones. This is an interesting issue in Canada because of our Constitution. Ontario typically has four school boards covering every region. They are: English and French public and English and French Separate (Catholic). This is a constitutional guarantee and cannot be changed. Other religous groups (mainly Islamic and Jewish from what I have seen) are mounting a challenge under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms (think Bill of Rights) to get funding for their schools as well.
5. ewein's original question: do you think the private schools (hard, I know, to generalize) do a better job?
My answer: Yes and no. When I went to public schools I was bored out of my mind. At one point, in grade 9, my math class had 34 students, but only 30 desks. My average hovered around 60% and I failed two courses. After that I went to boarding school for the remainder of high school and averaged 80% while being required to do sports every weekday and Saturday morning. It worked for me. One of my brothers, on the other hand, hated it and couldn't wait to get out. The difficult thing is finding the approach that meets the needs of the individual and no one system can be everything to everyone.
Ewein, I have thought about this a lot because I have two toddlers. My first preference is a private school especially because they are very active boys and many public schools are very hostile to boys in that they are expected to behave like girls; I will not stand for a teacher trying to prescribe Ritalin. I enjoyed the private schools I went to and, like most parents, want to to the best possible for my children. There are no suitable private schools near us though, so our oldest will be starting at the French Catholic (public) school next year. This school has a lot of parental involvement and demanding teachers who expect parents to be involved. There is a real sense of community around the school and everyone we have talked to who has children there have sung its praises. I feel this is due in large part to the fact it requires much more effort for families to maintain their French in a sea of English.
This is the kind of school we want our children to go to, one where the staff and parents are involved and engaged. No system, public or private, has a monopoly on good or bad teaching. We will go where the quality is.
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#16480
04/27/2002 10:39 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Roustpeteur,
Because of the US constitutional division of state and church-- some weird things happen in US.
religious schools are exempt from many of the rules that govern public or even private non-denominational schools.
so nuns or priests, teaching in a catholic school do not have to
1) have a BA or BS.. they sometimes have as little as 2 years of college courses
2) does not ever have to pass any test, or become licenced.
3) in some circumstances (of late, in the news) is exempt from public laws governing behavior.
(priests do have graduate degrees, but not in academic subjects-- and are not required to have any specific skills in the subject they teach)
the ongoing scandel now in several cities, re: priest molesting children, has made it clear, a priest, in performing religious duties, are exempt to some degree from criminal prosocution for child molestation. They are supposed to be dealt with by the religious authorities.. in many cases, the powers that be in catholic church, decided that the church was more important than the children, and the priest went virtually unpunished
i should stop here, and say, there are two different scandels, that many news organization fail to distiguish,
1) priest who molest children (either sex) under the age of consent
2) priest who abuse power and come on to, or initiate sex with 17, 18, 19 year olds (again either sex)
the first should be turned over to civil authorities, which the church can elect to do, but by and large didn't.
the second.. something should be done, but their behaviour, while unprofessional, and offensive, is not really criminal.
getting back to schools, the exemption means nuns, can and do use corporal punishments with children, and other behaviours that would not be acceptable or legal in public schools.
Since they are really a very seperate system, they really can't be compared to such schools in canada, ireland, england, or france. There, religious schools are governed by the same laws. here in US, our government is barred from making laws that effect religious organizations. so religious schools can teach anything they want, and do not have to conform to any external standard. Many do, to some degree, but there is no requirement to teach science, and in religious schools, it perfectly legal to only teach creationism, and never mention darwin!
and any one, at any time can start a religion, and once they call it a religion, its is exempt! (ask L. Ron Hubbard, who's quasi science fictions stories didn't sell to well, but who made a fortune with scientology!)
many other countries do have laws (good, bad and indifferent) about religions.. the has been some press, about scientology-- it doesn't meet what ever standard is set in germany to qualify as a religion.
(wonder what they would do with sect that exist in US that use poisons snakes in/as part of services rituals!)
I attended catholic schools till age 14 or so, and went to public HS. in some ways, the catholic school was better, in many ways worse.. neither really met my needs, and my parents were too stressed out to make any effort to find a school that did.
my children went to public schools, and my son elected to go to the local HS, but my daughter elected to commute for 1 hour each way, and attended a special HS (dedicated to Arts and Design.) NY has many special HS's, each with different specializations. On, Automotive HS, for many years had recuiters coming from the big three automotive companies, and would hire top students! This was HS! If Bean lived here, she could have started studying oceanography in HS, and would have taken a class in scuba diving, and done a Lab on a boat, in the Atlantic!
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ** *
and Biker Mom, one problem with national salaries for teachers, is housing cost are so different!
Greenwich Conn. has a problem, it likes to have local (township residents) for teachers, but housing costs are so high, most teachers can't afford to live in Greenwich.. teaches there get about $80K max but the average house cost over 1million!-- NYC teachers might seem to get alot of money (max pay is up to $70K,) but again, housing in NY is very expensive, and we have rather high tax rate, and $70K doesn't provide middle, middle class life style! so a one size fits all solutions to salaries might not work..
one problems is teachers get educated, and often, they elect to live in an area that provides more in the way of cultural enhancements.. libraries, book stores, theater, etc, and these tend to be in cities not in small towns.
the enhancements of small town life are different..(not better or worse)
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#16481
04/28/2002 2:36 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96 |
. >>>The difficult thing is finding the approach that meets the needs of the individual and no one system can be everything to everyone.<<<
Exactly my point--and it is the parent, teacher, administrator etc who should recognize this in kids and while not feasible to send each individual to their own special school, it is feasible to recognize a students learning patterns---And this takes interaction by parents, teachers, administrators, school boards etc. Don't sit behind your desk and dictate rules and leave a paper trail a mile long, that no one really wants to read. Human interaction and not the kind that certain priests and the like give. Kids are and should be our number one priority. And the schools, public or private that expect interaction from parents, teachers, administrators etc will in turn have many top students etc. No human, whether young or old, likes to be dictated to from a distance without the interaction----and perhaps this is what creates the school and other shootings on the rampage now, too many of us are being brushed off or put off and are never really heard. Take notice next time you are a customer anywhere---how many clerks and receptionists are so stressed out that they can not smile or give a greeting. And when dealing with the paying public, this should be natural, not fake or forced , but natural---No one likes dealing with a stiff personality either, for instance, when talking to a Rock, one does all in their power to make the Rock respond, and only the very confidant can walk away and accept the loss--the rest will scream,sue, or shoot, or violate private areas.
enthusiast
enthusiast
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#16482
04/28/2002 2:53 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96 |
Thanks Sparteye for the nice welcome. I have not been out in the cold, but actually doing my part and plus in the school system where my sons attend.
Yes, Sparteye, I too, have no complaints because I stay involved. I also agree that a foreign language should be taught in 3 or 4th grade. They do this in Europe, I know, because I also host Exchange Students. This is our 3rd year. Our community in very small, so I feel that if the academics aren't there, I can bring the academics to our family, by hosting a student, this peer interaction has been achieved.
2 graduated last year and this year one is about to go from grade school to high school. And I have been tutoring many students both in school and at home. That is why I see so many kids, while eager to learn, are starving, not because of lack of food, but because of the lack of someone who truly cares about their academic acheivments. but perhaps it is because I live in Appalacia, and also one of the poorest counties in the state, and also the United States, and perhaps it is because I grew up in one of the Upper class States that enables me to see these differences.
We are again all people with the same basic needs and wants--and something to think about----Why were the kids who grew up with 5 or more siblings in a one bathroom house 100 years ago, happier than the kids who have 1, 2, or no siblings and a 3 or more bathroom house??? We have kids in our area who still have an outhouse, and they are excellent readers and A students, with a mom who cares deeply, but does not dictate to the teachers on how and what to teach, and threaten to pull their child out---why--because they do not have the resources or the prestige to do so.
Sorry if I got off the issue of your post---I have to type what comes to mind and I could continue on this
Anyway, thanks for the nice welcome.
enthusiast
enthusiast
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#16483
04/28/2002 10:18 PM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 184
member
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member
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#16484
04/28/2002 10:46 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Seperation of church and state is true in all states. and while we here tend to be a self selected group, and tend to value educations. (well, i think we do.. and i do) it is not true that parents will always select the best qualified teachers.. if they value religion more than science -- they might well chose to send their kids to sub rate religious schools, rather than top notch public ones. (and yes, i have seen it happen. there are lots of sub rate catholic schools in NY.. there are some great ones too, but the schools vary greatly in quality.)-- and No, state can not enforce the same standards for teachers in catholic schools as in public. NYC public school teacher must have BA/BS to start, and must get masters by year 5 of teaching. they must also pass a licencing test. Catholic schools are exempt from those requirements. Have i personally known catholic school teachers who held PH.D's? yes, and i have also known catholic school teachers who only had a junior college degree (2 years of college.)
many catholic HS, agree, volunteraly, to meet state standards, (it makes it easier for college admissions) but they are not required to.
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#16485
04/29/2002 6:59 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>re: competiton
jmh, my comment about more competition meant that the schools (not the students) would have to compete. That is, in the US the school system is rather like our mail system: Whatever the outcome, the schools continue. If schools had to compete, perhaps the outcome would improve. Yes, I did get your point. In the UK, schools do compete. Parents have a lot of choice in selecting the school for their child, whether in the state sector or the independent (private) sector, for those who choose and can afford to pay. In rural areas there may be less schools within reach of home, in urban areas there wll be more. There is a limit to each school's intake and popular, successful schools tend to be over-subscribed. All schools results are displayed in league tables, where exam results (but no other qualitative assessment of pupil's success such as increase in self-esteem) are available for all to see. Last year's results are here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/education/newsid_953000/953191.stm but they are likely to be unintelligible to anyone outside (and to many inside) the UK. In addition there are school inspection reports, available on-line http://www.ofsted.gov.uk(for England) which go into more detail about the perceived quality of teaching. Whilst there are claims that the league tables and other measures (such as a literacy hour and numeracy hour in England) have improved standards. It is very clear that many parents who can, are willing to move house into areas with successful state schools to increase their likelihood of gaining a place. Other parents are willing to drive their children huge distances to school. Not suprisingly, this results in a postcode lottery - most of the best state schools are in the more expensive post-code areas which puts up house prices in those areas, which means that less people can afford the houses. So you start off with increased choice and end with decreased choice. The children from Peckham, mentioned in my previous post, are less likely to go to a school with high rating because disruptive, absentee pupils tend not to get good results and the school slides down the league tables. People who are able to make a choice because they have enough money to pay for housing in a better area don't tend to send their children there, so the downward spiral continues. There are some stunning, inner-city schools where children with very little support at home increase their self-esteem but the likelihood of that showing up favourably in the league tables is slim. When I went to school, we sat an exam at 11. Those who passed, were able to go to the grammar school, regardless of post code. Many argued that it was unfair to select children at 11, branding some as failures, and it was scrapped in the seventies for state schools in most (but not all) areas. I suspect that even then, the proportion of children passing the test from primary schools in "better areas" was higher. So you are left with the age old problem that the simple act of observation changes what you are observing. Parents do not, necessarily, make sophisticated choices about the whole range of things that a school provides, branding some schools as successful schools for successful children and others failing schools for failing children. Schools do not exist in a vacuum. Perhaps it is better in the USA? Helen says that there is parental choice in New York and that it is possible to match the child to the school. How are schools compared there? How do parents find out about the schools?
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#16486
04/29/2002 7:17 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>Public schools are propaganda! they teach the American (or English or Ozzie, or what ever) way of life!
I've been thinking about the fundamental problem with the voucher concept. It comes down to why we fund education at all. We don't fund education, just as an insurance policy so that it is there when we have children and need to make use of schools (for education, socialisation, stimulation, free child-care in term time while we go to work etc). We fund it so that all children get a chance, rather than being sent up a Victorian chimney. We fund it so that, at its best, there are well-educated employees available to make businesses operate well, dentists and doctors to look after our health, train drivers to drive our trains, the list goes on.
If we had a system of withdrawing money from the state to fund the education that we choose, outside the state system, then why shouldn't those people who do not have children withdraw money too, on the basis that they did not make use of the money that would have been available for them, had they had children. The slide down the slippery slope would imply that only those with children would be taxed to provide funds for education, when the whole point is that we are taxed to provide education for all.
Just a thought.
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#16487
04/29/2002 2:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526 |
The value to society is not with a public schooled child, but with an educated child, regardless of the source of his education. If that can be done by religious people, it's just the same to me. If the problem is with the qualifications of the teachers, then let's address that. With the failures seen in the public school system, it seems ironic to me that anyone would be going after the private schooled kids. These parents want to use a small portion of the per child allotment to get their children a real education.
The fact that my own children get an adequate schooling under the PS system is utterly irrelevant to those who aren't. (The school system was one of the main factors affecting our move to this area.) The fact that I (and the rest of us probably) can afford computers, etc., is likewise irrelevant. My kids would be educated regardless of what my income is. My kids came to school anxious and ready to learn. They were completely brainwashed into believing that school was a great adventure. (I underplayed the boring parts.)
Again, I use the public school system. The state takes my money (they take whatever they want, might always making right) and they provide whatever it is they provide and I figure I might as well make use of the service, especially since the teachers my kids have seem marginally competent (and the particular teachers right now especially good). However, we did consider private or home-schooling once when the school investigated us without our knowledge. I was pretty irate at the time since they wouldn't tell us who had accused us (the constitution is null and void when it's inconvenient); however, in retrospect the principal saved our family a lot of misery by not immediately turning it over to the jackboots. Still, I'm very glad that I have a choice. We could afford private school, but why pay twice?
Until this year when my health problems became so severe I couldn't ignore them any more, I was a volunteer tutor at a local high school. I spent many, many hours helping kids learn algebra, physics, but mostly geometry. The biggest problem is failure to study - more important to talk on the phone, party, and hang out. I don't have a desire for other people's kids to do badly, no matter how incompetently they raise them. But it would be nice if, were the school system to begin to fail my kids, they not do everything in their power to prevent my kids from achieving. My opinion is that if the people who were complaining about this stuff spent as much time concentrating on education as they did on whining there wouldn't be any education problem.
Here's a story. I have this neighbor who is a really religious guy. Now, I'm a really, REALLY strong atheist. I just have no use for religions at all. But I get along with this guy. We just don't discuss it. He started a chess program at the elementary school a few years back and he's gotten phenomenal feedback. I was president of the Ft Knox Chess club decades ago and there were only 4 or 5 people who would show up every week. The U of L chess club (of which I was not a member) would have maybe a dozen or so people show up at meetings. This elementary school regularly has 20 to 30 people show up. This guy is really great. So he takes his kids out of PS and his wife starts homeschooling them. I don't know if she has any college, but she's much smarter than most of the teachers at that school. Things go well for them, but HE CONTINUES TO COACH CHESS AT THE SCHOOL. (Bear in mind, he doesn't think he should get a voucher for this, but I very strongly do.) After 9/11 he loses his job. He's out of work for months, but HE CONTINUES TO COACH CHESS AT THE SCHOOL. This is amazing to me. Life has got to be really hard for him, but he's committed to these kids - he's committed to MY kids (my youngest is in the chess club). I mention this as anecdotal evidence against the misimpression that people have that people who homeschool or use private schools are selfish. This applies to some precious few of them, if any.
It's true that having an educated society benefits us all, but I see no value in looking at things in extreme terms - that somehow we have to reach every, single "child." There are plenty of opportunities for most people to succeed if they want to.
As an aside, it struck me some years ago that public school has two purposes. The first is to raise the bar for the worst performers. The second is to lower the bar for the top performers. This became evident to me when the NCTM asked for comments on their Principles and Standards, which they have since adopted. I considered writing them a long note, but I only had a month and that wasn't long enough to craft a serious letter. It was a good thing I didn't waste my time, too, because I saw their responses to the responses they got from others. It turns out that this is more of a social manifesto than a standard. I'm not sure what kind of influence these guys actually have on the PS, but it would be hard to believe they will be ignored.
So long as the PS provides adequately for my kids, I'll keep them there. If they fail, I'll make other arrangements, hopefully including vouchers (which are not unconstitutional).
k
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#16488
04/29/2002 4:57 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96 |
Fallible Friend's post has said it all in perfect plain English.
Fallible Friend is a plus to society and her children will be also. She is Open-minded and it is open minedness that fosters a growing knowledge of learning.
"Where there is a will there is a way" Consider this everyone, my student from Bosnia, Yugoslavia, born in 83, and growing up in a war-torn, 3rd world country, is appalled at the type of teaching that is in our schools. He says the kids are smart. It is the teaching that is way behind.
Yes, the value to society is an educated child--it does not matter how they get their education. And if most of the kids who fail spent as much time studying as they do skipping school, disrupting the class, partying etc then they too, would be one of the top students.
Yes, there are plenty of opportunities available to learn. Children can access these resources themselves or if they are lucky enough to have parents who value their children and edcuation, these resources will be provided or duscussed. In this computer age, there is no excuse for children anymore. Most libraries have computers for use and also many community centers. Parents, please take the time to surf and to supervise your child's rapidly growing computer knowledge--if you don't--you will be left in the dark---and that is when bad things happen-------
And yes, if many of those who complain would actually volunteer in the schools and do something--perhaps the schools would be much improved.
And again, do you think it is easy to teach a class of 25 to 30 kids??? Just imagine how easy it would be to teach and bake cookies with 25 kids who have never done it before, or have some prior knowledge. Or perhaps you think it is easy to teach 25 kids (of any age) to fish, with a rod & reel, hook, and from a boat?
J
enthusiast
enthusiast
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#16489
04/29/2002 10:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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#16490
04/30/2002 4:01 AM
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 184
member
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#16491
04/30/2002 11:37 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96 |
Please accept my sincere apologies, Fallible Friend. Max informed me that you are not a mother, but a father. Anyway, my compliment still stands and it is even more incredible, that your statement comes from a truly dedicated father
Thanks Fallible Friend
And Thanks Max
enthusiast
enthusiast
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