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...it's not really sporting to accuse Shopenhauser[sic] of "narrowness of view" in regards to "overcrowding" and "social evolution" - he lived from 1788 to 1860, and, perforce, his views are dated accordingly.
Really, now tsuwm, are you concerned with the feelings of Shopenhauser [sic] long dead? Or are you, rather, concerned about the objective reality of our present existence?
Well? We who care await your answer.  
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Pooh-Bah
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"and it's not really sporting to accuse Shopenhauser[sic] of "narrowness of view" in regards to "overcrowding" and "social evolution" - he lived from 1788 to 1860, and, perforce, his views are dated accordingly"
I agree. It would be interesting to see what the pundits of 2206 will have to say about our philosophies and pronouncements.
IMHO politeness and manners, ie what society decides are acceptable behaviours and styles of speech, have existed in many non-island and undercrowded societies. They do become much more important when a society is under stress such as crowding.
My take on "combining politeness and pride" especially given the era in which it was written is that politeness e.g. kneeling and an outward show of inferiority before a ruler could be difficult to combine with the knowledge that they are in fact inferior in ability, intelligence or even monetary worth.
Although it would get easier when you remember that they could have your head cut off.
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I agree. It would be interesting to see what the pundits of 2206 will have to say about our philosophies and pronouncements.
I dunno, Zed, it might be dull reading if it turns out that we of the 21st century have only rehashed the stale thinking of Schopenhauer [sic]and the usual round up of long dead philosophical suspects.
As for now I think I'd rather know the thinking of the thinking members of this board than discuss what Nietzsche and the boys thought.
Don't you think?
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" Would a virtuoso feel flattered by the applause of his audience if he knew that except for one or two the rest of the lot was deaf ?"
A man who writes such lines is not yet 'a long dead' person.
I picked up my old ' History of Philosophy' book to get a bit more truth of it.
Schopenhauer 1788-1860, son of a distinguished, whealthy merchant of Danzig. Moving to Hamburg, then Le Havre. They travelled a lot. After his fathers death round 1818 his mother and he settled in Weimar where he gave up the merchant education to change for an academic career.He already had a thorough knowledge of French and especially of English literature due to a stay of six month in England for his father's business sake.
In Weimar , his mother , who became a known novelist, opened her residence to many famous men. Ghoethe, Wieland, the brothers Schlegel and many more. He soon enterded universty to specialize in classic languages, but also studied the exact sciences.
Two years in Gottingen and two in Berlin, mocking his philosophy professors. Specially Fichte. (' there is some system in his madness' )
In 1813, age 25, he got his ' Ph.D.' on what was to be his departing point for all his future philosophical writing.(someting mathematical)
The centerpoint in his philosophy is the brake with his positivist predecessors, Plato , Kant and his contemporaries, Hegel , Fichte etc.
No spirit, reason, idea, the harmony of the universe, but will as the blind driving force of mankind as well as all organic and anorganic phenomenons.
All is au fond reasonless , irratinional in the deeper layers of creation. No best of all posslble worlds. Pessimism, but with a ironic, cynic yet humourus eye for the Human Comedy.
Ways out this vally of tears are through: 1. esthetics 2. Ethics.
(1) Art , specially music gives consolation, redempition.( 2.) Foresaking of the will as deliverance, coming close to
mystisism and abstenance like in Christian religions, but even more approaching ancient Indian Philosophies of which at that time first not yet very perfect translations had been done by a French writer. ( he is somehow inconsequent by accepting reincarnation and thus the survival of the 'will spirit'.)I guess he sees the eternal always recycling life energy.
Best read Counsils and Maxims and judge again. Could be less boring than you assume. Yes , I prefer to know what other people on this board are thinking too as long as they do. First requisite is to have something to think about, I think.
Last edited by BranShea; 11/24/06 09:27 PM.
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Yeah BranShea, Schopenhauer 1788-1860, said some neat stuff for his day. The trouble with the veneration of that which has gone before is that it's seeming profundity intimidates the young who then tend to quote rather than think.
For example today we who do think understand that words of philosophy must fit into a framework based on hard science.
For example, remember Socrates who said to the effect...
The essence of a thing is the thing's function and this function will direct the thinking enquirer towards the purpose of the thing.
So: The occasion of ritualistic polite behavior in human beings serves as a cultural cohesive which helps the breeding group in its collective desire to continue through time.
In essence politeness is this and nothing more.
Last edited by themilum; 11/25/06 02:53 AM.
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Quote:
Yeah BranShea,
For example today we who do think understand that words of philosophy must fit into a framework based on hard science.
For example, remember Socrates who said to the effect........ ( A quote from the past? );~)
The essence of a thing is the thing's function and this function will direct the thinking enquirer towards the purpose of the thing.
So: The occasion of ritualistic polite behavior in human beings serves as a cultural cohesive which helps the breeding group in its collective desire to continue through time.
Thanks for this reasonable answer.
Of course, that is a way to look at it and no doubt you're right.
But I do hope a bit of frameless thinking is still allowed. Why would we have freedom of speech
and no freedom of thinking?
For about 30 years we have tried so hard to not intimidate the young and the drop- out rate still keeps rising.
Does educating mean pleasing the young?
I was teaching highschool (art/art history) when the so-called "mammoth law" changed our system from
max. 400 students pro school to giant schools: 2000 to 4000 students. 1968. Merging schools. Heavy layers of managemant now
burden the system, changing the rules or no rules all the time and quality of education is going down fast.
Counters-sounds are heard. Not just by the old, but also by the younger.Propositions to return first of all
to grammar lessons. (yesterday, Le Monde, large article)
To propose this cool scientific appraoch on one hand and to take away the tools (grammar) to good 'exact'
understanding on the other hand is frustrating. ( I admit the limits of the word exact and the mixing of two subjects in this case)
Why not combine ' veneration' of what was, with holding on to
the present. Is that so hard?
Were you refering to Wittgenstein with your words about 'the nature of language'? The man who used words to strip all words of their meaning? And " raison d'etre " of humanity; I'm one of the pessimists who are convinced that that will never be found.
Exuse the long posts. I don' t like them, but need brakes laws. I long to get back to lighter stuff too.
Last edited by BranShea; 11/25/06 04:52 PM.
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Were you refering to Wittgenstein with your words about 'the nature of language'? The man who used words to strip all words of their meaning? And " raison d'etre " of humanity; I'm one of the pessimists who are convinced that that will never be found.
Very good, BranShea, you touched upon the two most salient points.
Wittgenstein was right when he kinda said that words have no meaning.
Words don't have meaning; words have function. Words can't explain how "something" came from "nothing", but words can direct the user towards an understanding of the likelihood of positive or negative events occurring that affect the continuation of the breeding group.
For example the "word-idea" that effected the increase in the number of students in the schools in your country was likely unrelated to the subsequent growth of the administrative bureaucracy. Like lawyers and politicians a bureaucracy has no conceptual design to grow fat and cumbersome and inept. They are simply people with like minded aims who unknowingly act in concert against the common good and then rationlize the poor results.
All human Cultures are, by their very nature, prone to a similar fate.
WORDS HAVE NO ABSOLUTE MEANING; WORDS ONLY HAVE A FUNCTION WITHIN A SET.
Last edited by themilum; 11/26/06 12:00 PM.
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It depends on what "meaning" means. Words carry meaning but the meaning is the meaning we put on them. That meaning can, and does, change. You'll occasionally find someone who interprets this to mean that one person can change the meaning of a word and, while it's true that one person can initiate such a change, it takes a village to change a word's meaning.
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Yes, that's the point. What is the definition of meaning?
Meaning : Noun
1. The message that is intended or expressed.
2. The idea that is intended; "What is the meaning of this proverb?".
Meaning lies within the words and although it cannot tell us how
'something came from nothing' and never will for we cannot even imagine what 'nothing' really means, words and their meaning are
tools we use through agreement on what each word represents and their meaning can develop and change or loose value.
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Tswum and Themilum (who's little provocation took this a longer way)
and others who contributed to this exhausting thread, thanks! I'm going to read old uncle Arthur's "Counsils and Maxims "now. His words will function within the set of his scriptures.
Nu use to google or dictionare "nothing". There's a whole world of nothing for sale, but no final definiton.
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