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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Quote:
How nice of you to indulge my quaint, conventional thinking so patiently.
You have presented an argument that learning is one component of literature, even in the broader form of living vicariously through a novel's characters. You support your argument by making a comparison to children at play. However you do not successfully show that learning is all that a book contains.
I'm not saying that learning has no place in the appeal of books, and in fact I agree wholeheartedly that one learns a lot by living vicariously through fictional characters, but I don't think that is the only source of pleasure or quality in a book. There are elements of style (to borrow a phrase) that are particular to the art itself that may not convey any bit of information. A writer who has mastered the technical aspects of writing so they can write with a strong, clear voice is superior to one who has not. A piece of writing may convey the same information as another, but it is typically much more of a pleasure to read one written by Ernest Hemingway, Mark Twain or Jane Austen than one written by Tom Clancy, Jeff Foxworthy or Jessica Trapp.
Hear hear!
elements of style
[strunk]applause  [/white]
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,529
veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2002
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Quote:
There are elements of style (to borrow a phrase) that are particular to the art itself that may not convey any bit of information. A writer who has mastered the technical aspects of writing so they can write with a strong, clear voice is superior to one who has not. A piece of writing may convey the same information as another, but it is typically much more of a pleasure to read one written by Ernest Hemingway, Mark Twain or Jane Austen than one written by Tom Clancy, Jeff Foxworthy or Jessica Trapp.
It takes one to know one, Sir Williams, you yourself write stuff with a clear voice that I admire. I probably could too if I wasn't afraid I'd sugar coat what I was trying to say by being readable. Especially fundamental concepts about physical nature which are not clear but shaggy and are best expressed in a vague and shaggy way...as follows:
What Is Learning?
That's easy. Learning is what life does to help it continue through time.
Well then, what is "life"? Well, life is what inert matter does when a billion billion varied interactions of temperatures and atomic combinations react through a billion billion billion episodes through time.
In other words, mud, given time, can walk and talk like you and me -- especially if we insist on defining life as mud-like-ourselves.
In other words any definition of "life" must require self-replication and adaptation to external conditions, and that condition is the result of inaminate matter continuing towards its own definition -- a self-fulfilling prophecy.
"The hell you say" You might say.
And you would be wrong. The only game in town is "determinism" and that in which we perceive as pleasure is merely a survival function of we, the walking mud.
Note: Only "bad mud" would understand these comments as anti-religious. Indeed these comments should underscore the majesty of God, he who created something out of nothing, and some of that something became us. 
Last edited by themilum; 09/15/06 02:01 AM.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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milum we may be having more of semantic debate than a literary one. FWIW I would separate the experiential from the informational, although there is some overlap in that every experience conveys some information ("oh, so that's what a backrub is like! how interesting!"), and the reception of data (reading, for example) is an experience itself. you may conflate them but I see them as separate. some of my favorite books have taught me a great deal, but there are other aspects that go beyond the joy of learning. take pride and prejudice for example. of course it is a joy to learn about life in the 18th century, and to learn by living vicariously through the characters, but there is for me a joy of connecting to another person's mind (Austen's in this case) that is more spiritual and seems to be poorly summed up as just learning. getting carried off by a great writer's narration is about as close as we can ever get to being inside someone else's head. it may be educational to experience, but it is also a sort of conjugation for the soul completely unrelated to eros (usually) if you know what i mean. to me that goes beyond mere "learning." i'd write more but it's already way too late and i'm going to be hating life when the alarm goes off tomorrow morning.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I'm with Alex. Sometimes reading is the mental equivalent of a brisk walk that shakes your mind awake and receptive, sometimes a gym workout that imparts deep learning and sometimes the chance to mentally lie on the grass and soak up the sun. Each one is important in the right time and proportion.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Favorite books can change with the seasons.But right now:
. The Adventures of Alice, In Wonderland and Throught the Looking Glass by Lewis Carrol.
. The travel books by Redmond O'Hanlon. Most recent : Trawler(fun!)
. A Song of Ice and Fire by GRRM Martin. Last release: A Feast for crows
It's no use , it's as hard to choose a favorite book as it is to choose a favorite colour. My whole life collection in my book case.Too many favorites. I remember my first favorite book ever though : The Little White Horse by Elisabeth Goudge. And it still is one of them.
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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A couple of other favorite books: The Dangerous Summer by Ernest Hemingway, Falling Angel by William Hjortsberg, and The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Although I love The Left Hand of Darkness, I think my favorite by Le Guin is Always Coming Home.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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The Left Hand of Darkness--sounds sinister.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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One of my favorite American writers is Carson McCullers. The Heart is a Lonely Hunter evoqued an atmosphere revealing something of the mysteries of America before I had even been there. So did Kafka's America. When I first came to New York it was in Hoboken that I saw streets that seemed straight out of Kafka's book. (I know he has never been there) So books and writers are miracles. Most cherished homeland book : The Praise of Folly by Desiderius Erasmus. Jane Austen for romantics J.J.Rousseau for romantics + idealistics Thomas Hardy for melancholy Diderot for fun. (Jaques the Fatalist and his master) Dostojevski for deep human suffering Shakespeare for beauty Marcel Proust for a two year's comfort- and- sweet- dream's contract Gogolj for madness Sorry , this post is rolling off the rail. 
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Quote:
Quote:
Faldage in his dotage
But "proform"" is such an interesting word. I'm still grappling with its meaning.
Yes, an interesting word.
I think I saw this word on a shop window of a six-toes shoe shop.
A foot reform institution. Children and people perform better wearing the right shoes. 
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