here's an aside to you, milum: I think we've pretty well established that not many of us have read FW, or have even tried to read FW, or plan to ever try to read FW. so, I don't think it's surprising that there is even more digression than usual in a thread about FW. would you like us all to leave so that you and HL and jheem can have an in-depth discussion? and who would you have us deliver the message to max?

[JFTR, I've tried to read Ulysses three times, and I never seem to get past the first day. any suggestions?]