#14824
01/06/2001 5:35 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
Are we in Oz unique in our overuse/misuse of "but"?
Give you a typical example....
Question : "Do you like caramel?"
Answer : "No. Chocolate's not bad but"
Believe it or not folks!
stales
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#14825
01/06/2001 9:26 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 3,146 |
In spite of intensive quarantine regulations being formulated and enforced vigorously by immigration and customs, it's crossed the Tasman. And it's as insidious as the possum ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#14826
01/06/2001 3:49 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Well, do you add anything after the "but"?
Does the sentence finish there or continue to clarify; or is your point that they should use "however"?
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#14827
01/06/2001 4:24 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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>Are we in Oz unique in our overuse/misuse of "but"?
>Answer : "No. Chocolate's not bad but"
Usually when I am going to call someone that, I spell it with two t's.
TEd
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#14828
01/06/2001 8:20 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Are we in Oz unique in our overuse/misuse of "but"?
Give you a typical example....
Question : "Do you like caramel?"
Answer : "No. Chocolate's not bad but"
But why the but?
wow
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#14829
01/06/2001 8:37 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Wow pleaded:But why the but?
Dunno. Might be anastrophe but.
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#14830
01/06/2001 8:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
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#14831
01/06/2001 8:54 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>"No. Chocolate's not bad but"
the anastrophe explanation makes more sense....
no; but chocolate's not bad.
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#14832
01/07/2001 12:22 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I have it on irrefutable authority that this is a manner of speech, used in a similar way to how some Canadians add
"eh" on to the end of a sentence. Rhetorically, I reckon, eh.
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#14833
01/07/2001 12:34 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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out is the jury on this one....  I'm thinking it may be a way to ameliorate what you say, so as not to cause undue offense, as in the rising intonation at the end of a sentence, apparently originating in Oz but having gained widespread use(age) among American teen-age girls in the last decade....(?*) ['awaiting wet-noodle flogging' emoticon] ---- *insert rising intonation here
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#14834
01/07/2001 12:48 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I'm thinking it may be a way to ameliorate what you say, so as not to cause undue offense, as in the rising intonation at the end of a sentence, apparently originating in Oz but having gained widespread use(age) among American teen-age girls in the last decade....(?*) ['awaiting wet-noodle flogging' emoticon]Oh, Gawd, are we back to Kylie Mole again? Reeeelly? Well, I mean, she g.. she go.. - she just goes! The use of 'eh' as an ending emphasis on sentences actually originates in that den of all iniquities, Auckland, New Zealand. It travelled (well) across the Tasman to Oz, where it was taken up with gusto by the non-native native population and probably the native native population as well. From there it could have gone anywhere. The use of "but" at the end of a sentence is definitely anastrophic, and does mean "however" or "as well", depending on the context. It underwent a little craze here a few years ago, died out, then got revived courtesy of a beer ad on TV. I notice, however, that it is dying out again. I don't know if it originated in NZ. Personally, I suspect those non-native native Ozzies again ... 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#14835
01/08/2001 11:56 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393 |
These sentences don't have the level intonation you or I would use for an uncompleted rider: "Caramel's not bad, but..." (sc. but I prefer strawberry). They have the falling intonation of a complete statement, as you or I would say "But caramel's not bad".
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#14836
01/08/2001 12:41 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
I have to challenge the notion that the antipodes gave birth to the rising inflection. It was (and still is) the normal cadence of inhabitants of the eastern counties of UK, known as East Anglia. It possibly goes back to the Danish imigrants of the post-Roman era. I postulate that from the fact that Danish - especially as spoken in Jutland - has a similar tendency. As I pointed out some while back (and am to ignorant to be able to give the link, and too lazy to find out how!) East Anglia was a prime source of immigrants to Australia (there were subscription clubs, charities and all sorts that provided money for fares to get rid of the blighters - not enough went, though; there's still thousands of 'em in Norwich alone!) Similarly, I need much more to convince me that either Canadians or Aussies invented the terminal "eh." That has been common in London - especially in the southern parts - for a very long time indeed.
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#14837
01/08/2001 2:22 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 31
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 31 |
Wherever it originated that rising inflection certainly seems to have become much more prevalent among American teenagers as Anna noted. Was it ever thus or is it just a fad?
It reminds me of the disgusting habit that teenagers invented some time back of emphasising the "as" in "as well". For example: "I like Chocolate but caramel's good AS well". Did that annoying mannerism take root other than here in South Africa?
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#14838
01/08/2001 9:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094 |
It reminds me of the disgusting habit that teenagers invented some time back of emphasising the "as" in "as well". For example: "I like Chocolate but caramel's good AS well". Did that annoying mannerism take root other than here in South Africa?
Well, being a teenager myself, I've never heard "as" emphasized like this. But I guess I only can vouch for the Cincinnati area.
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#14839
01/09/2001 7:20 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
The use of "but" at the end of a sentence is definitely anastrophic, and does mean "however" or "as well", depending on the context. It underwent a little craze here a few years ago..In Swiss German we have similar epidemics that befall our everyday language from time to time. Some twenty years ago, every second statement used to be topped with a final questioning "oder?". Neither deputies nor sportspeople were immune against this virus. Now there is the fashion of "natürlich", which is inserted in the most unlikely places, and it sounds quite natural, too  .
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#14840
01/09/2001 4:11 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
To reply to wow's question. "Why the but?".....
Because.
Further Comment on the original post...
Adding the "but" to the end is simple mangulation of the language through an unnecessary rearranging of the sentence structure. (Maybe that's what an anastrophe is - haven't looked that one up yet.)
Finally, to knock the issue of whether there's a rising or falling inflection on the head - THERE'S NONE!! As a proud user of the word (well, I know it's bad - but hey, this discussion has proven that it's unique!!!), I can say with with authority that it's delivered in a deadpan/laconic manner.
I'm still gonna use it but.
stales
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#14841
01/09/2001 4:14 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
In reply to:
Every second statement topped with
You get introductory words as well as ending words like this. Many years ago, when I was studying German in university, the fashion was to start every second sentence with grundsätzlich (=basically). Although I managed to keep from screaming after hearing this for the 5000th time, I ended up by never taking another German class.
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#14842
01/09/2001 4:15 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
Northern Territorians and Queenslanders are the prime users of the terminal "Eh" in Oz.
For this reason I jokingly refer to Chardonnay as "Queensland wine".
(Think about it)
stales
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#14843
01/09/2001 5:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
I brought up the rising intonation as a separate and distinct phenomenon from the "but" thing (which I have never heard). As illustrated by wsieber's "oder?" I postulated both might have something to do with softening the effect of what is said. Now, thanks to He of the Rhuby Slippers, I have learned that the rising inflection may pre-date Australian settlement, you know??
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#14844
01/09/2001 5:36 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 6,511 |
Adding the "but" to the end is simple mangulation of the language through an unnecessary rearranging of the sentence structure. (Maybe that's what an anastrophe is - haven't looked that one up yet.)
My name in vain thou shalt not take, stales (that goes for you Kiwis, too...)
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#14845
01/09/2001 8:25 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>the fashion was to start every second sentence with grundsätzlich (=basically)....I managed to keep from screaming ...
I used to have a boyfriend who started most sentences with "basically" and end them with ... "and such". I didn't manage to keep from screaming. He didn't last.
Other fashionable words around that time were:
timewise, workwise ... everythingwise.
My current pet peeve is "enjoy" with nothing after it. What am I meant to enjoy? At least adding "it" would give me a clue.
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#14846
01/10/2001 4:04 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Annastrophic pouts My name in vain thou shalt not take, stales (that goes for you Kiwis, too...)You're not half bad, but. I wish I could send you all an MPEG of the beer ad which kicked off a resurgence of trailing "buts" here. It was a hoot, although MaxQ was miffed because it was Speights, not Tui.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#14847
01/10/2001 5:00 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
A deranged Scarfie claimed that MaxQ was miffed because it was Speights, not Tui.
Yeah, right.
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#14848
01/10/2001 1:16 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
My current pet peeve is "enjoy" with nothing after it. Oh, Jo - I do so agree with you!!! It is a phrase that grates on my nerves, too. After that, there is nothing left to enjoy. And to save postage (and keep my addiction under control) I have been following the "but" debate with fascinated interest - thank goodness it hasn't caught on over here, yet - and I'm wondering if its use is as a type of phatic emphasis. It certainly comes over that way from the examples adduced; as,indeed, does the use of "eh?", from my experience of its use in London.
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#14849
01/10/2001 1:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>indeed, does the use of "eh?", from my experience of its use in London
There is also the matter of the Glasgow "eh" (pronounced - e-grunt) which tags itself onto the end of every thing said. [note to comics - rarely have I heard anyone say "eh jimmy"]
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#14850
01/10/2001 1:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
I wonder if "but" is replacing "not", another irritating fashion.
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#14851
01/10/2001 1:43 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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jo complains: My current pet peeve is "enjoy" with nothing after it.
Rhuby concurs: Oh, Jo - I do so agree with you!!! It is a phrase that grates on my nerves, too. After that, there is nothing left to enjoy.
The version US'ns most often use is, "Have a nice day!" The proper response when insulted by the sort of boor who would dare to wish you well without being specific about how you accomplish that goal is to reply, "The same to you."
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#14852
01/10/2001 2:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
- and there is always the phrase, which I am assured was originated by the Chinese, "May you live in interesting times!"
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#14853
01/10/2001 2:20 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
In reply to:
and there is .. phrase ... by the Chinese, "May you live in interesting times!"
I have always been told this is a Chinese "curse" -- along the lines of "May the flea's of a thousand camels..."
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#14854
01/10/2001 4:39 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I have been following the "but" debate with fascinated interest - thank goodness it hasn't caught on over here, yet - and I'm wondering if its use is as a type of phatic emphasis.Rhu, your but is phat, all right. (Sorry, I just could NOT resist that!)
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#14855
01/11/2001 7:10 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
every second sentence with "grundsätzlich".."irgendwie" (somehow) is another of these tags. It originated, I suspect, from people being forced to utter their feelings rather than their opinions . - Anyone around who remembers "encounter groups"?
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#14856
01/11/2001 5:19 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Most mornings I have coffee with colleagues in a cafe in the building I work in. It was called "The Flying Dux" for reasons lost in the mists of its first owner, but now it's just called "The Dux". Unfortunately, "dux" doesn't apply to the staff, who are typically a mixture of odd and pretentious. They are trained to say "Enjoy!" brightly as they deposit your coffee in front of you. They're eclectic too, because they don't seem to differentiate between the cup and saucer as suitable receptacles for hot coffee. They don't know the danger they're in. One of my off-siders is really ready to kill! She mutters and stabs dark looks of unfeigned resentment at the unsuspecting servitors every time. Not sure if it's the "Enjoy!" or the use of the saucer that brings her on though. I believe it doesn't matter any more, she's just about ready to go postal.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#14857
01/11/2001 5:49 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
even worse, in my opinion, is "Have a good one!"; I am left to puzzle out what, as with "Enjoy!".
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#14858
01/11/2001 5:56 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
How ya doin' - or - What's up (ssup) Nobody really cares about an answer, or they answer it for me with the same words ... I'm crushed every time At least I'm not a stranger anymore 
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#14859
01/11/2001 6:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
Worse yet, my wife and I (she more than I, of course) greatly resent being addressed as "you guys". In US parlance, a guy is masculine, as in Guys & Dolls; in British parlance, it's not complimentary either.
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#14860
01/11/2001 8:19 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
Rhu, your but is phat, all rightJackie - sssssh!!!! nobody is supposed to know that you know that!! 
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#14861
01/12/2001 3:30 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
, my wife and I (she more than I, of course) greatly resent being addressed as "you guys".
Bob, you get a [stand up and cheer emoticon]!
Rhuby--I know nothink, nothink...[wide-eyed innocence-con]
Musick, you cute little newbie you, send private (if you want) and tell me all about how you are. I'll listen, if it takes all night.
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#14862
01/12/2001 5:00 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I'm not sure about these days, but back when I was a young punk kid in my 30s "you guys" was common for both sexes. Sometimes women would only use it for other women but I've heard it used in reference to mixed sex groups. One of my favorite quotes was from someone who didn't accept use of the phrase in reference to females who quoted someone who did use it for females saying, "I've even heard guys use it that way!" Somehow he thought he had scored some kind of a coup.
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#14863
01/12/2001 7:08 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>even worse, in my opinion, is "Have a good one!"; I am left to puzzle out what, as with "Enjoy!"
Oh yes. In my youth this expression had something to do with the sexual act. I tend to be bemused when I hear "Have a Good One! I always wonder why people who say this should have so much concern for my sex life!
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