|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 38
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 38 |
Siderated adj to be struck with a constellation; star-blasted; planet-struck; blasted.
Now there, in my humble opinion, is a Word of the Day.
But is it a word? It caught my eye when I was looking up "sidereal clock" in my ill-famed Wordsworth Dictionary Of Difficult Words, but I have never seen it employed : It hardly has much utility in ordinary experience.
All the same, I cannot resist submitting it to the board in the hope that someone will be able to offer a more detailed definition.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
That's a good one, ullrich. It looks like a job for tsuper-tsuwm!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
siderate, v.
Obs.
[f. ppl. stem of L. siderari to be planet-struck, f. sider-, sidus constellation, star.]
trans. To strike with malign (sidereal) influence, to blast. Chiefly in passive: To be blasted, struck with lightning; also fig., to be thunder-struck.
1623 COCKERAM I, Siderate, to blast. 1646 SIR T. BROWNE Pseud. Ep. 335 Parts cauterized, gangrenated, siderated and mortified, become black. 1654 VILVAIN Epit. Ess. V. xxxiii. 102 The 2 Persons that were suddenly siderated or slain and scorched in bed together with Lightning. 1679 V. ALSOP Melius Inq. II. v. 307 This is Demonstration that puts the Controversie beyond all exception, and the poor Non-conformists are siderated with the violence of it!
OED SECOND EDITION 1989
edit: obsolete : to blast or strike down (as with lightning) [W3]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Tsanks, tsuwm. So the "blast" bit would be the connection to the steel industry?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
I think the Cockeram def'n (1623) would predate steel, non?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
>>predates steel<< Dear me, no! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel Scroll down the page a bit. There was an article on early hillside blast furnaces in China in the NY Times several years ago. Seville sword makers also used steel in the weapons that helped Cortez defeat the Aztecs.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
:}
I maybe should have said "would predate the steel industry".
-joe (Bessemer) bfstplk
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Ex-cuuuuse me! I'm asking about the make-up of the words siderurgy and siderated as per ullrich's original post. I'm astsuming the root is the tsame. [/geez, some people..®?!®]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>I'm asking about the make-up of the words siderurgy and siderated..
well excuse me thrice - yours just then is the first mention of siderurgy I think, and you did reply to me, using my nym did you not?!
(you don't have to try *that hard, ASp :)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
I axed about the steel industry earlier. And while we're at it, how does the above word tie in? [/no mo props for tsuwm] 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
I'm not going to pick sides in this one...
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
according to Festus, derived from s{imac}dus, s{imac}der- star, constellation. The vb. might thus be originally a term of astrology or augury, but such a use is not known in the Lat. writers. note to Faldo: ī <> {imac}
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
note to Faldo: <> {imac}
Hey! I'm reading this on an iMac. You think I can't see imac?
An I still wanna know what fsigma is.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
The overall rule on final versus non-final sigma is simply that, where the sigma terminates what may be understood to be a distinct word of Greek, it is final, otherwise, it is non-final.
hth.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 38
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 38 |
So when used to mean "struck with lightning" it is synonymous with "unlucky" in the sense of being "star-crossed" or merely "blasted" as if by a constellation? Perhaps in the same sense that the root of "disaster" in "astrum" records a former belief in astrology.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
I'm astsuming the root is the tsame. It's that assumption which is at the root of the trouble:
The latin sidus (-eris), star, is apparently not directly related to greek sideros, iron.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 38
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 38 |
And yet as a combining form, "sidero-" means both (iron and star). An orthographical coincidence of Greek and Latin etymologies?
[Rhetorical aside to self: Why are extraneous t's being inserted into certain words on this board? An in-joke originating with tswum?]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
>Why are extraneous t's being inserted into certain words on this board? An in-joke originating with tswum?]
You tsure tsummed that up tsuperbly.
And a belated welcome to our board. Sorry for the little glitches that happened previously, but we've hopefully done what needs to be done to minimize further damage.
TEd
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
This siderated word is all a proofreader's error. He was setting the following sentence: The proctors at the school decided that my side rated another star.
Unfortunately, an en-space disappeared between side and rated, and google picked up siderated and the next thing you know there were fifty thousand googlits. A star (word) is born.
TEd
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
[Rhetorical aside to self: Why are extraneous t's being inserted into certain words on this board? An in-joke originating with tswum?]
I guess some of us like to play with language as much as discuss it. No in-joke. Just a rhetorical device.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
>extraneous tease<
Dang, never even noticed it!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
>>I find this<<
Interesting article. "Unimportant" though? To whom? Specific iron meteorites were *very* important to certain tribes that used them to forge tools, esp. weapons, from.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
but I find this explanation improbable, bordering on spurious
As the author points out, finding Greek σιδηρος (sideros) 'iron' and Latin sidus, -eris, 'star, constellation' cognates goes against how Greek and Latin developed phonologically. Latin sidus has been compared to the Germanic words for silver and slag, but those comparisons are not without problems, too. In the end the usually PIE root suggested (by Buck, Walde, Pokorny, et al.) is *sueid- 'to glow'. (Also, the -r- in the Latin word is probably a result of rhotacization (-VsV- => -VrV-).) The Greek word has no appealing etymology, and is thought to be a loan from some unknown language. A terminus post quem for the borrowing would be the (hypothesized) time of sV- => hV- in Greek historical phonology.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
> I'm asking about the make-up of the words siderurgy and siderated as per ullrich's original post. I'm astsuming the root is the tsame.
in other words, coming full circle, that was a bad astsumptsion.
<g>
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
>that used them to forge tools, esp. weapons, from.
If they had the iron, why not make real tools from it?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,067 Likes: 2
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 11,067 Likes: 2 |
Re: siderated: "Ill-fated" or "blasted" ?
...So when used to mean "struck with lightning" it is synonymous with "unlucky" in the sense of being "star-crossed" or merely "blasted"
Then where do all the positive the words like "considerate" come from? Are we to conclude that "con-" here means not "with" but rather "against", the opposite of "pro" = for? Or is there a considerably different root here altogether?
All of those don't seem to have much relationship to "sider-" = iron or star, either.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
Sidérer is a very common French term that means "struck down with awe" in a negative manner. A person will be sidéré if he loses his job suddenly.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
>>considerate<<
Terrible guess deleted. But see "consider": intensive pref. "com" + sider (star). [prob. connected to astronomy?]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 38
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 38 |
"Then where do all the positive the words like "considerate" come from?"
According to my dictionary, "consider", etymologically, means: 'examine the stars' from the Latin 'considerare' and "sidus".
Perhaps in its original use, to consider something meant to consult the stars for an answer.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
>>consider the stars<<
From dic.com:
[Middle English consideren, from Old French, from Latin cnsderre : com-, intensive pref.; see com- + sdus, sder-, star.]
I prefer to think this refers to science than to superstition.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 38
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 38 |
And while we are on the subject of the unexpectedly arcane etymologies to everyday words [?], can anyone explain why the word "read" has its root in "rædan", "raden" and "raten" (respectively, Germanic, Dutch and German) which makes a reader, roughly "an interpreter of dreams" ?
Is this some throwback to a mantic use of the written word?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
why the word "read" has its root in "rædan", "raden" and "raten" (respectively, Germanic, Dutch and German) which makes a reader, roughly "an interpreter of dreams."
I'm not sure about oneiromantic etymologies, but according to Kluge, Etymologisches Wörterbuch, Rat 'council, advice' and raten 'to advise, give council' occur in most of the Germanic languages. There's even a Gothic verb, garedan 'Vorsorge treffen / to look ahead, provide for risk'. He ties in raten and lesen with unravelling (lit. unriddling) the runes / "die Runen enträtseln". German lesen, like Latin lego and Gk λεγω lego (and λογος logos 'word; reason', but translated by the Romans as ratio 'reckoning') have primary meanings of gathering together. Sounds partially like augury, or later on, hermeneutics, to me. There's also some connection between counting, recounting, telling a tale, and gathering knowledge or portents about the future: cf. English tell, tale, and German zahlen 'to pay', zählen 'to count', and erzählen 'to tell'. Also, the German word for letters of the alphabet Buchstabe where the morpheme Stab means a kind of wand or staff. Kluge mentions that Tacitus, in the 10th chapter of Germania describes how Germans made marks on twigs and threw them (like the I Ching?), interpreting the results, and connects this with runes.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
>> oneiromantic<<
Sorry to keep asking what's that; but what's that? Can't find nothing helpful.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
from OneLook:
Quick definitions (oneiromancy)
noun: divination through the interpretation of dreams
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Oneiromancy is the practice of predicting the future through dream analysis.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,290 |
What he said. Gk ονειρος (oneiros) 'dream' + μαντεια (manteia) 'divination' (fr. μαντευομαι (manteuomai) 'to divine, prophesy'. English praying mantis is a praying 'prophet, seer, foreboder, presager'.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
You bros are the boss, I say the boss, the Boss Bros., bros.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
and, just in case you're wondering, no relation to
manticore
c.1300, from L. manticora, from Gk. mantikhoras, corruption of martikhoras, said to be from an O.Pers. word for "man eater," cf. martiya- "man" + root of khvar- "to eat." Fabulous monster with the body of a lion, head of a man, porcupine quills, and tail or sting of a scorpion.
from etymonline.com
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 2,379 |
Sexual politics is written all over the text. And there is also, and relatedly, a sense that the text is reaching for something which cannot be said, yet which we cannot bring ourselves to pass over in silence - a little like the fourth guest who never appears. The literary figures of speech, the tropes in the text, are especially disconcerting in the passages, halfway through the dialogue, concerning something called khora (spelled: chi, omega, rho, alpha), which means - roughly - space or place. The Greek word has femine gender, and this is played up to the hilt - very off-puttingly, it must be said, for those of us who are tired of sexist stereotypes of Woman. Khora is the womb within which the ideal forms or essences are to be imprinted, when the visible world is created under the guidance of an intelligible plan. Being the receptacle for all essences, khora can have no essence of her own; but for Plato that means that the word "khora" can be given no definition - so no wonder Timaeus finds it difficult to talk about her! As Derrida says of the khora, "the question of essence no longer has any meaning with regard to it. Not having an essence, how could the khora be [se tiendrait-elle] beyond its name?" (Derrida, 1995, p.94) Khora is, as it were, concealed behind a veil of femine mystique. And yet, although she lacks any essence or form, khora is incapable of embodying the ideal forms without distortion - and indeed she is not always completely passive as she receives the forms. Shortcomings in the world which comes into being are to be traced not to flaws in the (masculine) plan, but to deficiencies in the (feminine) khora within which this plan must be executed.http://snipurl.com/hkv7Related to same "to eat?"
|
|
|
|
|
