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martiya
Related to latin mortalis. Persian khvara 'eat' is related to our English swill by Pokorny: *swel- 'to eat, drink'. A strange change phonologically, but there are stranger. Eat is related to Latin edo fr. *ed- 'to bite; eat'.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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well Kali (or Shelia na Gah) are godesses of both life (birth/sex) and death/destructions..
(shelia both invited (with her spread legs) and destroyed-(with her nashing teeth!) Kali too, was the seducer/and destroyer..
this duality is not uncommon in many early myths (of gods/goddess)
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(with her nashing teeth!)Vagina dentata, or just plain old pearly whites in her mouth? But seriously, Sheila na Gig, or Síla na Géige 'Sheila hunkered down'. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheila_na_gighttp://tinyurl.com/bo7m6
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I have come across this expression before in a psychology text where it was used to draw the connection between dreams of sharks and castration anxiety.
"Symbols of oral aggression may be placed along a continuum of distance from the quality of humanness. In a dream, sharks represent the vagina dentate, or even a dentate phallus: fear of being engulfed by the preoedipal parent."
—Lane, Robert, and Saralea E. Chazan, Psychoanalytic Psychology.
You can't help but wonder at its origins. Freud? Bosch? Rabelais? Medieval bestiaries? Because God forbid it comes from an actual teratological case.
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from teratology the branch of biology concerned with the development of malformations or serious deviations from the normal type of organismto Ancient Taplow http://www.indigogroup.co.uk/edge/Taplow.htmwhat a pleasant morning's diversion! thanks for the links and ideas!
formerly known as etaoin...
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godesses of both life (birth/sex) and death/destructions..
Sounds like Arga-Warga from Riddley Walker.
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Pooh-Bah
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Sounds like Isaac Singer.
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You can't help but wonder at its origins.
It's a common motif in folklore stories and jokes. The first time I ran across it was in an article about jokes from US GIs in Saigon about prostitutes and broken Coke bottles. The next time was in an folklore class where the professor pointed me at Stith Thompson Motif-Index of Folk-Literature: A Classification of Narrative Elements in Folktales, Ballads, Myths, Fables, Mediaeval Romances, Exempla, Fabliaux, F547.1.1. There are quite a few Native American and First Nation tales from Washington and British Columbia that use the motif.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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> maneater
ain't that Hall and Oates?
formerly known as etaoin...
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RE: "jokes from US GIs in Saigon about prostitutes and broken Coke bottles."
To wit?
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Pooh-Bah
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In Naked Lunch by William S. Burroughs (which was the last novel in America to be the subject of an obscenity trial before being published in 1962) we meet a "bull dyke" who can "cave in a lead pipe" with her vaginal grip. Presumably she had done her kegel's exercises.
Certainly makes Mr Bloom "asquat on the cuckstool" seem rather tame.
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Pooh-Bah
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You have not made a case.
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Pooh-Bah
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No, you have not noticed it.
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"You have not noticed it."
I think we have a very different idea of what qualifies as a case. But you may put it down to my dim-wittedness if you prefer.
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Pooh-Bah
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No. We disagree only on how much need be said, sometimes.
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And sometimes there is a fine line between being elliptical and obfuscatory.
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Ullrich, were you asking me for a citation of the article I had read. Because, if so, it's long gone. Sorry, I just remember it being in a minor sort of folklore journal.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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besides, i don't think i want to read such a vulgar joke here. there are plenty of x rated sites that specialize in vulgar material.(my son ran an X-rated web page, and his, and others are not unknown to me)
i have no problem with adult subjects. i don't think we need to refrain from all mention of breasts or penises or other body parts (and there really has never been any effort to censor -except self regulation--but i don't think retelling a vulgar joke (publicly) will add anything to topic. Do you?
Occationally (and i too have been guilty of it occationally) we have gotten out of hand, and the subject matter has become, well BLUE. but as a general rule, we refain. we certainly don't INVITE people to post vulgar jokes.
a quick quip--that makes you laugh befor you blush.. that's one thing, but HEY, tell the joke here... well its generally not done.
If anyone thinks this general policy is wrong, they are welcome to correct my assumptions and make some of their own!
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i don't think i want to read such a vulgar joke here
I had no intention of telling any jokes, vulgar or otherwise. I referred to an academic study and, I believe it was you who brought up Sheila na Gig, not to imply that this goddess or her representation is vulgar, though some could no doubt interpret it that way.
Having said that, I do notice that less is posted here that has to do with the proposed subject matter of the board, i.e., words, than with tangents of wit, common and elevated. That is when newbies aren't being chastized.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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I am sorry "of troy" that you have taken exception to the turn this thread has taken. But, after all, the phrase in question IS "vagina dentate". How can a discussion of its possible origins and use be otherwise than vulgar?
And as far as the joke about Saigon prostitutes and broken Coke bottles is concerned, the poster did not mention teeth per se, so my asking for the joke itself was relevant to the history of the vagina dentate motif.
It might be worth mentioning that a vulgar joke sung by Australian troops during the Gallipoli campaign of World War I found its way from the barracks and into T. S. Eliot's 'The Waste Land' :
O the moon shone bright on Mrs. Porter
And on the daughter
of Mrs. Porter.
They wash their feet* in soda water.
And so they oughter
To keep them clean.
[* In the soldier’s ballad, it was not their feet which were washed in soda water. “Eliot gives the polite wording”].
Textual exegeses on 'The Waste Land' (or any of a slew of modernist texts for that matter) do not have the luxury of shirking vulgarity. Surely the same should apply to the discussion of words?
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do not have the luxury of shirking vulgarity. Surely the same should apply to the discussion of words? Well-- I guess I'll reiterate something I said long ago: that in any situation, virtually everyone adjusts their speech according to what audience they have at the time. For ex., one would not ask a class of 6-yr.-olds to spell, say, antithesis; nor give a university math class 2 + 2 as a problem; hopefully, one would not bring up intimate personal problems in the office lunchroom, nor disrupt a worship service by arguing loudly with what the leader says.
There are times when it is appropriate to give hard spelling words and simple math problems, discuss one's personal life, and to voice arguments. But not all the time. It is good manners to refrain from saying and doing things that are inappropriate and/or offensive, and some people here find vulgarity offensive. I do, at times, and here is one of those times; for all I know, some of the new people are youngsters--we've had posting members who were young teens at the time, and I believe one was ten years old. And I have no way of knowing how many may be just reading. I would ask that we not give them a spate of vulgarity, nor do I especially want to come here and read it. I can go to lots of other web sites and find all the vulgarity I want. Let's please try to save the trash-talk for those whom we know won't be offended.
Just because we are capable of going out on a crowded street and braying like a donkey doesn't mean that we should; no more than just because word discussion can include vulgarity, doesn't necessarily mean it should, here. And I would like to ask that it not. Please.
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This Victorian attitude does not conduce to a free discussion of words. Anyway, you need to read the posts. Castration anxiety, modernist literature, and Celtic mythology are not trash talk.
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This Victorian attitude does not conduce to a free discussion of words. Anyway, you need to read the posts. Castration anxiety, modernist literature, and Celtic mythology are not trash talk.
(emphisis added by me)
re the bolded text: no--they are not, and they were discussed freely. but retelling GI jokes about prostitutes (and broken coke bottles) are very likely to be trash talk.
i suppose there are some joke told by men (and women) in time of war that are suitable for reprinted in Readers Digest--but somehow, i suspect any joke involving a prostitute is not one.
this is not a victorian attitute. this is a civil attitude.
as i said, there is porn and vulgarity to be found all over the internet. if that is what interests you, no issue. I am 100% in support of a free and open internet --i think the US laws about a free press apply (at least in US, if other countries want to ban X rated sited, that is their business. but this is not a porn site, nor is it an appropriate site to retell vulgar jokes.
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Let me be clear. I did not tell a joke, vulgar or genteel. Was all these hubbub a preemptive strike on my telling a joke? Let me just say personally I don't care for the tone of your chastisement.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Whoa, whoa--there has clearly been some misunderstandings/miscommunications here, if only by me.
Would you all mind communicating with each other by PM, to see if there can be hopefully either an understanding or an agree-to-disagree end reached? There appears to be a level of upset that is beyond my comprehending, and I intend to set about following my own advice, now.
EDIT:
The primary point of good manners is acting in such a way that people around one are as comfortable as possible. I sincerely hope that everyone who posts here will use good manners. Please note: this is NOT saying, "Don't dare voice a dissenting opinion"; it is saying that if you do, please be nice about it. Thank you very much.
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1-- i clearly replied to ullrich--(note i copied his text into my answer, and in threaded (as apposed to flat mode, this is also clear.)
2--ullrich asked about the joke (which i think you made reference to)
i certainly wasn't chastising you! and i am sorry if it seemed that way.
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At the moderator's request I have taken my grievance offline into PMs.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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"There are some people whom it is one's duty to offend!"
-- Lord Reith.
You, "of troy", repeat yourself without taking into account what meanwhile has been added to the debate. This is infuriating. But I will not repeat MYself. Instead, I will put this imperviousness -- as well as the shambolic quality of your writing and reasoning -- down to your being in some way mentally defective, and accordingly try to show you the compassion and patience you are entitled to.
But for your own benefit “of troy” revisit my post. There, you will see (or, failing this, some sympathetic friend may help you to see) why asking for the joke to be cited was pertinent to the phrase in question, and why your recommendation that I satisfy my penchant for vulgarity elsewhere on the Internet "if that is what interests you" was not only insolent, but obtuse.
The only thing I cannot understand is whether you are really a prig, or whether you simply find the opportunity for pompous moralising irresistible. In my view, it is probably the latter, given that your son is a porn-monger (which, by the way, is as distasteful a confidence to force upon a public message forum as anything a Saigon whore can do to a coke bottle).
It is my opinion that this board is being overzealously administrated. The result is a vitiating atmosphere of overcorrection, politicking, and futile bibble-babble on the question of the legitimacy of posts, rather than the theme’s they present.
Lastly, if a vulgar joke had appeared unsolicited on this board, I would understand the reaction of "of troy" and others; however, in the context of this thread, the reaction is preposterously narrow-minded and childish. As is often the case in such matters, this prudishness is probably an ironic expression of libidinal frustration. The best remedy for this should be obvious, by either natural means, or with a Coke bottle, whichever being the most geographically convenient.
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It is my opinion that this board is being overzealously administrated. The result is a vitiating atmosphere of overcorrection, politicking, and futile bibble-babble on the question of the legitimacy of posts, rather than the theme’s they present.
Then it is my opinion that you are misinformed: This board is not administered at all except to deal with trolls. IMHO that is both its charm and its downfall.
On reading this whole thread it appears to me that you positively enjoy argumentation. Do not misinterpret an argument with one of the members as representing the general opinion of the readership.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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