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I have read Joseph Campbell only in excerpts, but what I've read is consistent in getting across archetypes that are common to various cultures.
My kids are studying excerpts from the Odyssey, and I have wondered for a long time now what the Cyclops themselves could have represented on a spiritual or archetypal level. Why one eye? They are a group without rule, each one of them being a law unto himself with no higher law. Could the single eye somehow represent this? A limited point of view? All solo?
Just wondering...
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FWIW, Robert Graves thought the whole one-eye thang was because they wore eyepatches, being blacksmiths and all, to keep sparks out of their eyes. Cyclops means (most likely) round-eye.
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well totally non architypal, i read, that the early greek had seen skeletons of elephants (before they ever saw an elephant alive) and mistook the large front nasal cavity for an eye socket and 'constructed' the cyclops myth from that. (they had evidence of some large animal, that had mythical powers, never have seen one, and with only the skull to judge.. came up with cyclops.. (there is the same sort of evidence about 'griffens'--you can google and--there was an article in the early 1990's in archiology magazine about how mythical griffens might have been constructed out of fossilized evidence(of a dinosaur)
elephant aren't found (naturally) north of sahara, and african elephants don't lend themselves to domestication anyway, so the closet elephant that could be domesticated would have been indian.. (and pretty far away.)
there are large game animals who's existance was thought to be fabled until the modern exploration of the interior of africa (ie, late 1800/early 1900's.
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As a retired teacher with 35 years behind me and a zillion meetings attended from 1958 to 2008, I have come to appreciate the wisdom of Joseph Campbell and I post this prose-poem written as a quasi-eulogy for/to him.-Ron Price,Australia
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ZONES
"Each individual," write Joseph Campbell, "is the centre of a mythology of his own, of which his own intelligble character is the Incarnate God, so to say, whom his empirically questing consciousness is to find."1 For Baha'is, it seems to me, this Incarnate God is the God within "mighty, powerful and self-subsistent." It is the "know thyself," from Delphi. This centre of mythology is also an unfolding of convictions derived from the effects and expression of experience, the imprintings of infancy and our peculiar and private worlds. This is what Campbell calls our "mythogenic zone." It is our interior life and its communication with others. The poem below explores the negative side of the process across our global society. -Ron Price with thanks to Joseph Campbell, Creative Mythology, Viking Press, 1968, p. 93.
This poetic writing aims
to let the Word resound
behind words1 seemingly
endless words where
my mythogenic zone
is especially informed
by the metaphorical nature
of all of physical reality,
Baha'i history no less
and lived experience.
My innermost need
to express has its place
in my shaping of self
and civilization,
in my particular form
of intoxication.2
And a growing impoverishment
of symbols, spiritual poverty,
symbol-lessness fills the land,
liquidating our past,
with bleak substitutes.
A bland barrenness reaches
all the way to the stars
and history becomes a nightmare
of complex, anarchic confusion,
uninterpreted, unassimilated, alien,
and: a Waste Land fills their place.
1 ibid.,p. 93.
2 Frederick Neitzsche wrote that "for art to exist there is a physiological prerequisite: intoxication." Twilight of the Idols, quoted in Campbell, p.355.
Ron Price
10 February 2002
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(updated for Wordsmith.org
21/5/'08)
married for 41 years, a teacher for 35 and a Baha'i for 49
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well totally non architypal, i read, that the early greek had seen skeletons of elephants (before they ever saw an elephant alive) and mistook the large front nasal cavity for an eye socket and 'constructed' the cyclops myth from that. (they had evidence of some large animal, that had mythical powers, never have seen one, and with only the skull to judge.. came up with cyclops.. I suppose that's possible of the really early Greeks, however, elephants (of both varieties) were well known to the Greeks, Persians, Carthaginians, Romans and others at least several centuries BC. It seems to me more likely the Cyclops was a literary creation, a fictional monster, rather than a legend pertaining to some real animal.
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Let me throw in the sun and the moon, when viewed in unsettling weather or solar system conditions, as nominees for cyclops eye.
Last edited by morphememedley; 05/22/08 03:30 AM. Reason: prescientific (scientific as in astronomic) settings
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really early Greeks
Homer, or whoever composed the Odyssey, is usually dated to the 9th century BCE.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Let me throw in the sun and the moon, when viewed in unsettling weather or solar system conditions, as nominees for cyclops eye. It must have been puzzling a bit that on some days sun and moon are both visible in the sky.
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really early Greeks
Homer, or whoever composed the Odyssey, is usually dated to the 9th century BCE. Yes that's why I said it's possible. But, why doesn't Cyclops have large tusks? All the author in question seems to be quoted as claiming is that "some sources" say the Cyclops has [presumably normal sized] tusks. What sources? Also of course, though it is most likely Homer lived ca 700-900BC we don't know for sure, since the earliest extant Greek manuscripts are around 2,000 years later, ca 10th or 11th century AD. It is certain that Aristotle taught Homer to Alexander the Great in about 343BC, but I don't know whether there are any earlier literary allusions to his works. It's possible, but I don't think it's possible to know for sure that the legend was based on ancient archaeological finds. I do find the other hypotheses more convincing, however, regardgin the Griffin, etc.
Last edited by The Pook; 05/23/08 01:01 AM.
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The Wicked Witch of the West had only one eye...
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FWIW, Robert Graves thought the whole one-eye thang was because they wore eyepatches, being blacksmiths and all, to keep sparks out of their eyes. Cyclops means (most likely) round-eye.<br><br> Looking back over The Greek Myths I see that Graves actually said they were bronzesmiths and that Cyclops meant 'ring-eyed'.
The Cyclopes seem to have been a guild of Early Helladic bronzesmiths. Cyclops means 'ring-eyed', and they are likely to have been tattooed with concentric rings on the forehead, in honour of the sun, the source of their furnace fires; the Thracians continued to tattoo themselves until Classical times. ... The Cyclopes were one-eyed in the sense that smiths often shade one eye with a patch against flying sparks.
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The Wicked Witch of the West had only one eye... erk?
formerly known as etaoin...
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Yes that's why I said it's possible. But, why doesn't Cyclops have large tusks?
Well, I never said I held the oliphant theory plausible. I'm more than willing to concede that the "origin" of Cyclops as a character in a story is unknown, and, maybe even, unknowable. Most folks do so hate a vacuum or lacuna, and do try almost anything to fill it. The etymology of the name though seems pretty straightforward: Κυκλωψ (Kuklops) < Greek κυκλος (kuklos) 'circle; wheel' + ωψ (ōps) 'eye'.
I was reminded, offtopically, of English louche 'morally suspect' from Old French losche 'squint-eyed' < Latin luscus 'one-eyed'. Come to think of it, wheel-eyed or round-eyed doesn't necessarily imply one-eyed. Maybe the Cyclops was like the dog with eyes as big as saucers in Andersen's The Tinder Box.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Come to think of it, wheel-eyed or round-eyed doesn't necessarily imply one-eyed. Maybe the Cyclops was like the dog with eyes as big as saucers in Andersen's The Tinder Box. He thinks so, does he preciousss, gollum gollum, perhaps he may be right preciouses, but what has it got in its etymological pocketses we wonders we does..." 8)
Last edited by The Pook; 05/24/08 12:11 AM.
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but what has it got in its etymological pocketses we wonders
Cur? Ecce: Origines Sancti Isidori Hispalensis.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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but what has it got in its etymological pocketses we wonders
Cur? Ecce: Origines Sancti Isidori Hispalensis. Holy Spanish Goths Batman! ...um does this have some obscure connection with Smeagol that I am too dense to see? Or is it just one of your favourite sources? 
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They are a group without rule, each one of them being a law unto himself with no higher law. Could the single eye somehow represent this? A limited point of view? All solo?<br><br>Just wondering...<br><br>
"Achilles then cries against their clicking cameras and throws an imaginary lance.
It was the cry of a warrior who looses his one soul to the click
of a cyclops". ( Nobelprize winner 1992 Derek Walcott) The metaphor of the camera as a modern cyclops. Thinking of our news hungry hordes of camera men I like to link it to this quote from Wordwind.
Last edited by BranShea; 05/25/08 09:19 AM. Reason: addition
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The Wicked Witch of the West had only one eye... erk? couldn't find "erk" anywhere...
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The Wicked Witch of the West had only one eye... erk? couldn't find "erk" anywhere... heh sorry, it was just a random expulsion. what's up with the WWW only having one eye?
formerly known as etaoin...
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what's up with the WWW only having one eye? Mebbe in her downtime she was a blacksmith! Apparently her good eye had telescopic vision, kinda like Superman but not.
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If she only had one visible eye from her witch-beginning (parthenogenetic or otherwise), could what would normally (to some) be the third eye have served as her second eye?
If she had one visible seeing eye and one visible apparently-blind eye, perhaps the latter was used for her dark arts.
Last edited by morphememedley; 05/26/08 05:11 AM.
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Oh, well, just have a good Memorial Day. Meaning All of You!
Last edited by BranShea; 05/26/08 04:40 PM.
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In the book, not the movie, she did not have green skin, and she had only one eye, not two or more with any non-functional. The one eye was, indeed, telescopic in nature, so she could see all of her realm in the West. When Dorothy and her friends set off to destroy her, she saw them coming from a long way off. There was no sneaking into the castle at all. She had a reputation for making slaves of those she captured. She had no idea who Dorothy was, but sent four waves of minions to dispatch them all, except for the Lion, as she thought it would be amusing to hitch him up to a cart. Dorothy escaped murder by the apparently visible mark of the Good Witch of the North's kiss on her forehead. By the way, the witch of the North remained nameless, the Good Witch of the South was named Glinda, and she did not appear until the end of the story, when Dorothy sought her out to go home.
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why do I get the strong feeling that you've read more than just The Wonderful Wizard?
-joe (Tik-Tok) friday
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Your feeling is accurate; however, all that I recounted above is from the first book, The Wonderful Wizard of Oz. I have a very old copy, plus a copy of Ozma of Oz that were part of my family's books. There were tons written, and I have certainly not read them all. They get way off into unfamiliar territory real quick...
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thanks for the clarification, sleeps. I have read a couple of the Oz stories, but didn't remember the details.
formerly known as etaoin...
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most mythology seems to have emerged fron reflection on the sun moon and stars.in indigenous australia often ancestors are seen as living in the stars very reminiscent of the myths in star wars etc.
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Welcome,  you've returned to cyclops and mythology exactly 3 days and five years after this thread was started. Sun and moon must have given great reason to wonder and worship in the very old days and even though we know more about it now we still do not know the wherefrom-whereto. I can imagine our ancestors living in the stars as there must be at least enough stars in the sky to account for every soul that ever lived.
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The current movie "Australia", now out on DVD, shows
brilliantly the stars and the ancestors concept.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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The current movie "Australia", now out on DVD, shows brilliantly the stars and the ancestors concept. It is, however, the second worst movie in the history of the world.
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oh, come on doc, you can't leave us hanging like that!
-joe (so what's the worst) friday
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The current movie "Australia", now out on DVD, shows brilliantly the stars and the ancestors concept. It is, however, the second worst movie in the history of the world. Living in Australia I can understand your comment. What is the "worst" movie? At least as far as you are concerned? I feel many movies made of Native Americans here vie for the category as you mention it.
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My vote for worst is Mr. Costner's "Waterworld," at least in U.S. cinema.
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
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I'd go with Attack of the Killer Tomatoes! At 87 minutes it was about 57 minutes too long..
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My contribution: "Ishtar", and "Barry Lyndon".
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There is always one second best or second worst but of best and worst there are always many.
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There is always one second best or second worst but of best and worst there are always many. Part of your post did not make it here, Bran, but comes in the email. I did sit through Barry Lyndon twice, and the second time, paid close attention to costumes and appurtanences. Lots of good movie/bad movie depend, I suppose on our like or dislike of the actors. I liked "Australia" for instance, but won't see a Tom Cruise movie, no matter how many millions they pay him.
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Uh? Oh! I forgot there are email notifications cause I don't subribed those/ Yes the original post was more substantial.
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Uh? Oh! I forgot there are email notifications cause I don't subribed those/ Yes the original post was more substantial. They do have the tendency to clog up one's inbox, that's for sure. I did not get them for a very long time, but then would lose someone's comment to me, and I would reply days later, long after the topic had changed, or in anagram stew, the word itself had gone on to greater heights. (You's was some sort of glitch in the system: because when I tried to click on your response, the site said it could not link to it: I got here through the back door, back up to forums and down to the thread.)
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Ishtar and Barry Lyndon! Terrific choices - one worse than the other. We seem naturally to have focused on relatively big-budget movies that should have been good, but stunk. If we widen the net to include low-budget films, there are too many really, really, bad movies to count or to rank. In fact, "rank" is a good word to use in association with this class of film. They used to be hard to find, but now they're available on DVD anywhere movies are sold. They're not all old, either. They just stink. My son and I watch them (particularly those striving to be classified in the sci-fi genre) just for the laughs they provide.
"I don't know which is worse: ignorance or apathy. And, frankly, I don't care." - Anonymous
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Ishtar and Barry Lyndon! Terrific choices - one worse than the other. We seem naturally to have focused on relatively big-budget movies that should have been good, but stunk. If we widen the net to include low-budget films, there are too many really, really, bad movies to count or to rank. In fact, "rank" is a good word to use in association with this class of film. They used to be hard to find, but now they're available on DVD anywhere movies are sold. They're not all old, either. They just stink. My son and I watch them (particularly those striving to be classified in the sci-fi genre) just for the laughs they provide. And it has to be great having a son to provide the company for that rank activity. Recently rented Hogfather, supposedly a spoof on Christmas or something. DON'T rent it: watch 23 minutes of it before turning it off: totally stinks. I just tell my dog who looks at me like "You're the human, why not just take me for a walk, instead of watching that stuff".
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My contribution: "Ishtar", and "Barry Lyndon".
I never saw Ishtar, but I have always enjoyed Barry Lyndon the couple of times I have watched it (once in the cinema). I even went so far as to read Thackeray's book on which it was based. While it is not an unflawed film, I could scarce call it bad. There are so many bad films so much deserving, e.g., 1941, How the West Was Won, Green Slime, Lynch's Dune, The Horror of Party Beach, and others.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Yes! That was what the glitsjed post contained. I have seen Waterworld several times ( 2 or 3 )and Barry Lyndon 3 times even though I'm not fond of Ryan O'Neal. I still have the LP of the soundtrack.( beautiful landscapes, panoramic action scenes, the story ) I always re-watch Spaghetti Westerns ( Once upon a time in the West and: see headline of post) when they pass on TV. Love Ennio Morricone's music. Dune, wish I could see that one again. Only saw it once. Ishtar never heard of before. If it's the same sort of bad it might be good.
Also great are those spektakel movies with the wrong Odysseusses and Agamemnons and Helenas and more classical heroes and monsters.
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I really like the music to Barry Lyndon. And watch westerns spagetti or otherwise on the western channel I receive. Istar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar_(film) http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093278/The reviewer on the last reference liked the movie. I took breaks during it to stay awake.
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I looked at the YTube trailer. No, real bad. The kind of funny that isn't funny.
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Exactly, makes you wonder who wrote the script and why.
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makes you wonder who wrote the script and whyEasy to determine. The director, Elaine may, wrote the screenplay. As to why, the Wikipedia article ( link) on Ishtar says this: Beatty felt indebted to May, who in addition to cowriting his 1978 hit Heaven Can Wait had done a major uncredited rewrite on the script of his Academy Award-winning Reds and helped immensely with its postproduction. He began looking for a project to do with her, one she could write and direct. She had never, he believed, had a sufficiently protective producer, and by starring and producing in her next film he could give her the chance to make the film he believed her to be creatively and commercially capable of making.
At a dinner with Beatty and Bert Fields, their agent, May said she would like to do a variant on the Road to... movies of Bing Crosby and Bob Hope, set in the Middle East. Her idea would feature Beatty and a costar as a mediocre singer-songwriter duo who would go to Morocco and get caught in the crossfire between the Central Intelligence Agency and a local left-wing guerilla group. She thought it would be funny to cast Beatty against type as the Hope part, the bumbler of the duo, while the costar, possibly Dustin Hoffman, would play the self-assured ladies' man that Crosby usually took.
Hoffman, who was also indebted to May for her extensive uncredited rewrite on Tootsie, intially turned it down due to "misgivings". At Beatty's request, the two met with May and Hoffman's creative confidant, playwright Murray Schisgal. The latter two felt that the action plot in Morocco overwhelmed the rest of the film and that it "should not leave New York". Hoffman was finally persuaded by Beatty's assurances that he would provide May with the room she needed to work.
When May finished the script, Beatty, Hoffman, and some other friends including Charles Grodin, had a meeting and read-through at Beatty's house. All present agreed that the script needed work, but it was funny and could be a hit. May was a talented comedienne and writer, and even the most talented person is capable of creating something that's a flop. Creating a great notoriously difficult and even some of the greatest filmmakers (Griffith, Hawks, Fellini, et al) have some real duds to their names. (I just watched Hawks' Man's Favorite Sport?) yesterday, and I switched it off after about 40 minutes. It was a dismal little "comedy" with Rock Hudson in the lead.) Anyway, it's probably time i saw Ishtar, so I can judge for myself if it deserves its reputation.
Ceci n'est pas un seing.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Just saw an item on the news here. Sandra Bullock came to pick up her Razzie for worst actor in 'All about Steve".
The little speech she gave was só funny. She is nominated for best actor in The Blind Side tonight.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 5,295 |
Of course you are right in that a 4 minute trayler doesn't guarantee a safe opinion, but what I saw looked a bit dated and I do suppose they selected the most persuasive parts. I never saw it pass here. Not in cinema nor on TV. But all pass on TV in the end so who knows..?
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132 |
Recently rented
Hogfather, supposedly a spoof on Christmas or something. DON'T rent it It's based on the Terry Pratchett novel. I guess you're not a fan.
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,933 Likes: 3
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,933 Likes: 3 |
I guess I should look up Mr. Pratchett. Thanks, but I really
don't remember the movie now: some time ago when I posted that,
but I guess I did not like it.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
Recently rented
Hogfather, supposedly a spoof on Christmas or something. DON'T rent it It's based on the Terry Pratchett novel. I guess you're not a fan. I loved the book (and pretty much all Pratchett!). how is the movie, goofy?
formerly known as etaoin...
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
I don't have Hogfather, but here's a (lowbudget) Pratchett film: Run Rincewind Run
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,933 Likes: 3
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 9,933 Likes: 3 |
Cannot see the film as it is no longer available.
----please, draw me a sheep----
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 132 |
I loved the book (and pretty much all Pratchett!). how is the movie, goofy? As a fan, I enjoyed it. But I think it was too faithful to the book, which made it too long, and it contained unnecessary scenes which newcomers might get turned off by.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
I loved the book (and pretty much all Pratchett!). how is the movie, goofy? As a fan, I enjoyed it. But I think it was too faithful to the book, which made it too long, and it contained unnecessary scenes which newcomers might get turned off by. cool! I wonder if I can get my wife to put it on Netflix....
formerly known as etaoin...
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