|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Equally surprising are the origins of our English words liberty and, especially, freedom. They have very different roots. The Latin libertas and Greek eleutheria both indicated a condition of independence, unlike a slave. (In science, eleutherodactylic means separate fingers or toes.) Freedom, however, comes from the same root as friend, an Indo-European word that meant "dear" or "beloved." It meant a connection to other free people by bonds of kinship or affection, also unlike a slave. Liberty and freedom both meant "unlike a slave." But liberty meant privileges of independence; freedom referred to rights of belonging. Anyone got any further thoughts on this comparative etymology? http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/07/opinion/07fischer.html?th
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 444
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 444 |
Nothing so erudite (or even at all erudite) to add here, but it did set me thinking about the difference in the way way we use these words in set phrases:
- take liberties
- freedom of speech
and how bizarre those would sound if the words were reversed.
Freedom somehow seems more reciprocal to me than liberty - one person can take a liberty whatever society thinks, but freedom of speech is a communal decision and you can't have it unless you let others have it too.
I wonder if I thought that before I read your post, or whether I am being led to it by your etymology, Mav?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385 |
take liberties
- freedom of speech
and how bizarre those would sound if the words were reversed.Very astute, Bridget. Great insight! [Aside: I am sorry if the following sounds pretentious, Bridget, but it is really your point not mine, so any liberty I am taking is an enlargement of your own insight, not an expression of mine.] Freedom just wants to be free. Too much freedom can result in a loss of liberty for some. * So someone has to take it back. When they take it back, they don't take anyone's legitimate freedom away. They just take their own "liberty" back. Maybe that's why we "take liberties" but not "freedoms" [as you suggested]. It is interesting that it is "liberty" and not "freedom" which is hallowed in Lincoln's "Gettysburg Address" and the Declaration of Independence. Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.http://showcase.netins.net/web/creative/lincoln/speeches/gettysburg.htmMr. Lincoln asserts to-day, as he did at Chicago, that the negro was included in that clause of the Declaration of Independence which says that all men were created equal, and endowed by the Creator with certain inalienable rights, among which are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.http://www.bartleby.com/251/pages/page347.html"Freedom of speech", as you have implied, is unconstrained. Who was it who said: "I disapprove of what you said, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Apparently, it wasn't Voltaire: "Voltaire didn't pen or utter the sentiment you quote. According to a number of web sites, "The phrase was invented by a later author as an epitome of his attitude." It comes from The Friends of Voltaire, written by Evelyn Beatrice Hall and published in 1906 under the pseudonym Stephen G. Tallentyre. Hall said that she paraphrased Voltaire's words in his "Treatise on Toleration," ..." http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20030331.htmlOf course, we no longer consider "freedom of speech" entirely free. "Hate speech" is a crime, particularly if it incites people to crimes of violence. There is considerable debate over how or whether hate speech can be defined; whether speech thus labeled ought to be regulated; and if so, how and by whom. These debates center on three critical questions: First, what is the force of speech? Is it the expression of personal thoughts, or is it a form of action that affects and can harm others? Second, is the free expression of ideas which some perceive as hateful necessary for healthy public debate, or is it harmful to public debate? Third, should governmental policies be founded upon the protection of interests and rights of individuals, or of identifiable groups — such as sexual orientation (e.g., homosexuals) and race (e.g., racial minorities)? Legitimate criticism normally protected in USA under the First Amendment is sometimes labeled "hate speech" by the critiqued.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_speech* This recalls quote Aorto gave us in her "irony" thread: "When everyone knows good as good, this is not good." Tao Te Ching, Cleary translation."Freedom of speech" comes with some limitations on freedom. Is that ironic? Or just natural justice?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385 |
from Dr. Bill [wwh]:
When people were few, they had freedom,
but it didn't mean much. When people became numerous,
customs had to be developed to prevent any one individual
from being free to injure any other individual. Customs
eventually became laws that limited our freedom.
The rights that were left were liberties.
P.S. Dr. Bill thinks this is "not profound enough to post", but, I, for one, disagree. At least, he says it better than I did -- altho not necessarily better than Lincoln. [What's "profound" about "natual justice" anyway? It's just ordinary "do unto others" fairness, isn't it?]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
i don't know if there can be talk about freedom and liberty with out talk about hierarchies.
chickens have pecking order, and most primate societies, (includeing human ones) have 'alpha males'--and alpha females!--some primate society is matriarchal even!
the qualities that make an alpha male in human groups changes with the group. the best chess player in the chess club might be admired and looked to for leadership by the chess club, and be an alpha male in that group, but its not likely in the general scheme of HS society (or even adult society)that the championship chess player is a leader in more general way. the alpha qualities in small group (chess club) do not guarentee being an alpha male in a larger group.
most of us who post here, live in societies that are less hierarchalical then many societies in the world, and we tend to share all the freedoms and liberities that our leaders have. (but not the same press coverage, or security coverage, --or for most americans, the same health care coverage!) --we have alpha males, (and females) but they rule with a light hand(mostly).
in the war lord societies of afganistan, most members of the society have significantly fewer freedoms and liberties than the warlords, --same is true in saudi arabia, and in many other societies. even some that claim to be democratic.
i think it is somewhat in our nature as human beings, to form into hierarchies,(and at the same time to resent them!) and that organized anarchy, is a rare form for organization. it is a mode of opperation that has to be worked at, actively to achieve.
In many groups POWER is something that is over --admins (or what ever you want to call them) --have power over the group--who can register, who can post, how often they can post, what they can post, etc..
occationally group can form with POWER TO.
i have no POWER Over anyone here. but i have POWER TO:
to ignore
to respond
to agrue my point
to disagree
to agree
to post
or to not post.
No one (save Anu) has any more power here than anyone else.
everyone uses their power to achieve what they want.
some are more succesful, some are less successful.
but NO one has power over.
as a convention, we don't use vulgar words--the kind most newspapers still refuse to print. but vulgar words have been use in the past, (and will be, alas, in the future.)
i can't stop anyone from using them, and no one can stop me--except myself. I have the power to keep this place free of vulgar expressions. (and in general i use my power well, but i have been known to get angry, and careless in my behavior
I have total freedom of speech (or text, as it were) and total power to i say or or not say something.
but the civilized anarchy that exist here, only exist because if everyone acts in a similar way. (it becomes self supporting) its a very fragil society.
Most of us here bristle at the idea of organize POWER over us, and function well, with each of us using our POWER TO.
(for more thoughts on power, and how it is used in society, see marilyn french's Beyond Power--its not just about the femenist movement.)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
I also found myself reexamining Martin Luther King's resonant "free at last" speech in the light of that 'sense of belonging/family' connection.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
sorry Mav, about my rambling about groups/social structures and power.
but freedom (as in being a member of group, or family) is a social idea.
there were free men but not free women in ancient times, --
women were not slaves, but not free in the modern sense, even if they were family-- and sexism has been known to still rear its ugly head in modern times.
as for slavery vs freedom, (in US social groups)it hard to analyse with out racism being part of the factor.
it is a sad and disturbing fact that blacks who immigrate to US (from anywhere) tend to do better in everyway measurable-- better income, better educated, better jobs, better health (they live longer, too) live in better houses, in better neighborhoods, rate themselves as happier, the list goes on--than black born in US.
is the problem white society? or something else? is it someway relate to a sense of freedom? (of belonging, being beloved?)
i do think feeling you are part of group, a dear member of a family (be it biological or social) is empowering!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,529
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 1,529 |
Nothing Else to Lose Sorry. I mashed the button to check out this thread because I thought it was about Birdwind's eleven bluebirds that flew her coop, but then I find out that this thread is about other stuff and that of troy is abusing the term "empowered". Listen, of troy... If the so-called empowerment transcends the biological imperative
then naught but sadness will prevail. Sadness. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
(Pronunciation Key)free·dom Listen: [ frdm ]
n.
The condition of being free of restraints.
Liberty of the person from slavery, detention, or oppression.
a. Political independence. b. Exemption from the arbitrary exercise of authority in the performance of a specific action; civil liberty: freedom of assembly.
Exemption from an unpleasant or onerous condition: freedom from want.
The capacity to exercise choice; free will: We have the freedom to do as we please all afternoon.
Ease or facility of movement: loose sports clothing, giving the wearer freedom.
Frankness or boldness; lack of modesty or reserve: the new freedom in movies and novels.
a. The right to unrestricted use; full access: was given the freedom of their research facilities. b. The right of enjoying all of the privileges of membership or citizenship: the freedom of the city.
A right or the power to engage in certain actions without control or interference: "the seductive freedoms and excesses of the picaresque form" (John W. Aldridge).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[Middle English fredom, from Old English frodm : fro, free ; see free + -dm, -dom.]
Synonyms: freedom, liberty, license
These nouns refer to the power to act, speak, or think without externally imposed restraints. Freedom is the most general term: "In giving freedom to the slave, we assure freedom to the free" (Abraham Lincoln). Liberty stresses the power of free choice: "liberty, perfect liberty, to think, feel, do just as one pleases" (William Hazlitt). License sometimes denotes deliberate deviation from normally applicable rules or practices to achieve a desired effect: poetic license. Frequently, though, it denotes undue freedom: "the intolerable license with which the newspapers break . . . the rules of decorum" (Edmund Burke). http://www.yourdictionary.com/ahd/f/f0307300.html
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 1,385 |
COLLEGES VALUE CIVILITY OVER FREE SPEECH
By Scot Lehigh, Boston Globe Columnist | February 8, 2005Write about free speech on American college campuses occasionally, and you quickly come to realize that a good many people honor the concept mostly in the breach. Every column defending free expression generates a number of emails with this basic message: Of course I support free speech, I just don't think someone should be allowed to say that.
-----------
David French, president of the Foundation for Individual Rights in Education (FIRE), a nonprofit devoted to defending free speech on campus, says the foundation frequently encounters that sentiment among college administrators and faculty.
''One of the most common experiences we have at FIRE is for an administrator or a faculty member to pledge undying loyalty to the First Amendment even while they are censoring a student,'' said French. ''They claim to support free speech, and if you put them on truth serum I think they would still claim to, but they think if a person's feelings are hurt, speech has just gone too far.''
Harvard University President Larry Summers encountered that same sort of mentality in the recent brouhaha he sparked by mentioning - not embracing, mind you, but merely mentioning - theories than men and women have different innate abilities when it comes to science and math.---------- http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/
articles/2005/02/08/some_support_free_speech_in_theory_
but_cant_tolerate_it_in_practice/Link broken to reduce length
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,916
Posts230,467
Members9,211
| |
Most Online17,319
Apr 8th, 2026
|
|
|
|
