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The legal context of 'volens' has already been thrashed out here before, http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=91872...but my interest was willingly solicited by this saying and I wondered whether any of you know or use it. Although m-w.com provides a definition of 'nolens volens', the phrase is clearly not in widespread usage. And yet the concept it reflects is a very common one. The notion of a person being 'willing-unwilling' drawn into singing a song, or dancing, etc. is quite useful, I think. Sure there are plenty of alternatives - but it has a good rind to it, does it not? "...halb zog sie ihn, halb sank er hin" Goethe - Der Fischer
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Yes, especially for one who is a little meloncholy.
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the concept it reflects is a very common one. The notion of a person being 'willing-unwilling' drawn into singing a song, or dancing, etc. is quite useful, I think.Not sure I would agree that this is the concept behind "nolen volens", belligerentyouth, although I do agree that that seems to be the sense behind your Geothe quotation as interpreted in this discussion which I found online. nolens volens - (lat. wanting not-wanting) half voluntarily half involuntarily. Goethe (Fischer): half it pulled it, half sank it."The Professor who cited Goethe's 'push-pull' idea [being "of two minds" about something, or being "pulled in two different directions"] is not seeing the implicit "or" in "nolens volens", I believe. It is not "nolen volens" I submit, but "nolens [or] volens" as in this discussion of the term: Word of the Day for Monday June 28, 2004 - Dictionary.com nolens volens \NO-lenz-VO-lenz\: Whether unwilling or willing. "Beneath the surface, little-noticed but fundamental changes are taking place that must compel both sides, nolens volens, sooner or later to reconfigure their tortured but inseparable relationship." --Bernard Wasserstein, Israelis and Palestinians Please note "compel" in quotation. Whether they choose, or not, they must, inevitably they will, find a modus vivendi. Like "yin and yang", tail and fang, locked in an endless, circular chase/embrace. Would this express your idea [and Goethe's] of being "willing-unwilling" both at the same time, BY?Everything can be described as yin or yang1. Yin and yang are opposites.Everything has an opposite. Though it is never absolute, only comparative. However, no one thing is completely yin or completely yang. It contains the seed for it's opposite. For example, cold can turn into hot; "what goes up must come down". 2. Yin and yang are interdependent.One cannot exist without the other. For example, day cannot exist without night. 3. Yin and yang can be further subdivided into yin and yang.Any yin or yang aspect can be further subdivided into yin and yang. Take temperature for example. It can be considered hot or cold, but can also be further divided into warm and burning, or cool and icy. 4. Yin and yang consume and support each other.Yin and yang are constantly kept in balance. As one increases, the other decreases. However, imbalances can occur. There are four possible imbalances: Excess yin, excess yang, yin defeciency, yang deficiency. 5. Yin and yang can transform into one another.At a particular stage, yin can transform into yang and vice versa. For example, night changes to day ; heat turns to cool; life changes to death. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yin_YangP.S. I was surprised to see that I was part of that "volens" discussion a year ago, BY. And, yes, it does have "a good rind to it". :)
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Your phrase, by, reminded me of another one that Helen, iirc, posted: toties quoties. I really like the repetitive sounds of that one.
adv. 'as often as'; repeatedly; n. Roman Catholic, indulgence obtainable as often as desired.
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This isn't nolens volens, but it is at least a second cousin:
willy-nilly
Function: adverb or adjective
Etymology: alteration of will I nill I or will ye nill ye or will he nill he
1 : by compulsion : without choice
(I don't include the 'spontaneous' definition #2 on purpose here because that's not a second cousin.)
unwillingness
Here are two very good words for that state: nolleity and nolition (n.).
willingness
Then there are velleity: just a wish to do something
And volition: a stronger, active determination to do something than mere velleity
So, nolens is like nolleity/nolition...
And volens is like velleity/volition...
And we can pounce the cat and have our nolleity velleity and nolition volition, I suppose.
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 Nice construction, Wordwind. If you ever get to God's country I'll buy you a Pabst Blue Ribbon Beer. Nicely done.
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LaCrosse, Wisconsin?Don't be silly Musick, when I speak of God's Country I speak of Heaven... You know... I'm Alabamy Bound, Alabama Here I Come, Carry Me Back to Ole Alabamy... You know, the place where everyone wants to go back to. You know, Musick, Sweet Home Alabama; the reddest state in the land of the free. Now Mister Musick, you must stay current. 
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Dunno how you can call it heaven if they have PBR.
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Dunno how you can call it heaven if they have PBR. Very funny Faldage, but here in this holy land of cotton we also have posh beer for little pinky finger sip-drinking yankee snobs...such as premium Budweiser in brown long-necked bottles. And if you ask nicely the clean waitress will bring you a nice clean glass without complaining. It is called "Southern Hospitality". Hey Musick, I can't bring up your URL. Do you think it might work if I re-spelled "tyttebaer"?
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I cain't say much fer no hospitality what ain't got no beer what tastes like something.
Beer is more than an alcohol delivery system.
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In reply to:
Beer is more than an alcohol delivery system.
~Faldage
Great line, Faldo, even though I detest beer.
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velleityLovely word, Wordwind. All our velleities are full of gaieties. Who was it who said "If wishes were horses, beggars would ride." P.S. Looks like others want to know the answer to that question: Help us to maintain our history and heritage through the words and lyrics of old Nursery Rhymes like ' If wishes were horses ' If wishes were horses,
Beggars would ride.
If turnips were watches,
I would wear one by my side.http://www.rhymes.org.uk/a43-if-wishes-were-horses.htmJust discovered, the missing verses [at a McDonald's Restaurant in Birmingham, Alabam]: If wishes were horses Beggars would ride If turnips were watches I'd wear one by my side. Nowadays horses Are ridden by flies And kids get their watches At McDonald's with fries. Revised
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i have never before heard the second half of the couplet (If turnips were watches,
I would wear one by my side.)
thanks.
there are many threads here with classic ditties(nursery rhymes of the mother goose variety)songs, and childrens poetry.
my own children were raised with these songs.
i think its is incredible sad that some songs, (many childe ballads) which i learned as street songs, and that children have sung for hundreds of years, are becoming unknown.
children today don't know all the jump rope songs and hand clapping songs, and game songs (london bridges falling down) that i learned. and even my daughter in law is unfamiliar with the gingham dog and the calico cat (which i will be reading later today to my granddaughter.)
she did know the owl and the pussycat..
{ok, i'll conceed, most childrens poetry is pretty new.. (ie, 100 to 150 years old, vs. songs like "ring round the rosies")}
i hate sounding like an old foggy.. but scraps of poetry and song, learned long ago, still stirs happy memories.
froggy went a courting..
or
the tree is in the hole and the hole is in the ground..
or
the water is wide i can not cross over, neither have i wings to fly..
or
my bonny lies over the ocean, my bonny lies over the sea..
and all the other ones we have thread and threads of collective information about.
but really who cares (well maybe you do)about ditties that one finds in Mc Dodo's..(that is almost touting fries? do you want to super size them?)
i doubt any verse that references beggers flying can be too old. and it doesn't really add to the original couplets do you think?
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it doesn't really add to the original couplets do you think?
Quite true, Of Troy.
My McCouplet does nothing to honor the enduring charm of the original, nor does it do anything to bring that charm back to us.
You and I have always agreed about the lamentable loss of poetry in the lives of the present generation of students.
They don't know what they're missing, and that is truly a pity.
And it's a loss to future generations, as well.
P.S. Furthermore my ditty containing the line "Nowadays beggars take horse in the skies" does an injustice to the plight of the poor who have little enough money for bus fare, never mind airfare. I'm sorry now I wrote it.
Your perspective gave me some valuable after-thought on my over-hasty composition. Thank you. [See Revision]
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for dr bill's sake, i thought i try one more time..
1--you posted a stupid crappy bit of poesy(your term, i think used else were to justify some other stupid couplet) and claimed it first is was found in a mc donalds in birmingham
2--you admit it had nothing really to offer.
3--you also admit the truth--you made it up on the spot.. and in response to my comments edited --and made it no better or more worthwhile.
Yeah, on the internet no is supposed to know you are a dog.
but you, sir, lie. you post falsehoods. you claim you have no enemies (another lie, since you have in the not too distant past made it clear you think the 'carpels' conspire against you--and that you were determimed to drive them away. its not common to 'drive away friends" rather ones tries to distance one's self from enemies. you made it clear you had emnity with the 'carpel cabel' (a mythical group).
i tried. i took you post of face value, i acknowledged a valuable contribution. MY MISTAKE.
if you wish to understand why you post are considered odious, look to this thread.
wasted time with stupid couplets that you pass of as interesting. and then in a moment, conceed are of little to no interest. you edit them. they are just as uninterested edited.
You didn't claim the couplet as your own --at some level even you didn't want to be associated with it. but you expect me, and others to be interested. that, sir, is treating us with contempt.
and that is why you have become contemptable here. YOU ACT CONTEMPTABLE. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE for the way you act. if you act contemptable, you will be treated to our contempt in return.
and many who used to post here, tired of your contempt and have abandon this forum.
IF you want to learn anything, learn to treat us with respect. I treated you post respectful. You played me a fool. again. is this how you treat friends? or is this how you treat enemies? i am hurt and angry. I offered an olive branch, and got a thorn bush as reply.
I like to find the good in people. i feel looking for it in you is futile.
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Sorry you thought my reference to McDonald's in "Birmingham, Alabam" was something to be taken seriously, Of Troy. Truly sorry. I used that bit about McDonald's just to be funny, i.e. to create an excuse to 'reveal' the "missing verses". I know from previous posts that theMilum is from Birmingham, Alambama - see "Blacklisting Christmas" thread. So I thought it would be fun to suggest, in fun, that it was themilum who posted the ditty in Birmingham. I deliberately truncated the name of the state "Alabam" to give myself away. I thought themilum would pick up on this first. Sorry, Of Troy. I was, and am, most grateful to have your valued reply. I did change my McDonald's ditty because I didn't want to to perpetuate the ill-considered insensitivity it showed to "beggars". [100 years ago, the creators of nursery rhymes, and mothers who rocked babies to sleep with them, did not have the social conscience we have today.] As for the rest of it, I acknowledged to you, sincerely, in my reply, that my additional verse is not worthy of the original nursery rhyme, and it isn't. But I considered my additional verse, on that account anyway, harmless. And, as you know, there is a controversy raging about the nutritional value of fast food menus at a time when we have an epidemic of overeating in our society. * So I thought my hit on McDonald's [i.e. watches and fries vs turnips (veggies) and watches] was worth retaining in spite of the fact that it does nothing to recapture the charm of the original nursery rhyme. That's my reasoning, Of Troy. I have taken the trouble to explain because I value very much the unselfish and brave effort you have made to help bring peace to the Board. I would not want any untimely and very regretable misunderstanding to upset that.* US Hospital Tries to Evict Mcdonald'sGuardian Newspapers, December 15, 2004 Extract: "One of America's premier cardiac hospitals is locked in a furious battle with McDonald's after its director sought to evict the fast-food outlet from the clinic's sprawling site. After a lifetime of cleaning up clogged arteries, Toby Cosgrove, the director of the Cleveland Clinic, was convinced that fast-food restaurants had no place in an institution with a mission to promote healthier lifestyles." http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/text12-15-2004-63023.aspI saw this story on U.S. National TV News a week or so ago. That's why I thought it was worth keeping in my ditty. Didn't mean to diss the nursery rhyme.
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I just can't resist... from another forum:
Amsterdam was hosting a conference of beer producers. At the end of the day, the presidents of all beer companies retired to the bar for a drink.
As the waiter approaches, the president of Budweiser calls out, "I'all have the best beer in the world. Give me 'The King Of Beers', a Budweiser."
Adolph Coors says, "Bring me a Coors, the only beer made with Rocky Mountain spring water."
"I'll have a Miller Genuine Draft," says the president of Miller.
Arthur Guinness down and says, "Give me a Coke, please." The other brewery presidents look over at him in amazement. "Why aren't you drinking a Guinness?" "I'd love to," says Mr. Guinness, "but I figured if you guys aren't drinking beer, neither would I."
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Pooh-Bah
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It's an attractive image - beer company presidents going head to head.
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well, I keep going back and froth about this one...
formerly known as etaoin...
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journeyman
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Jackie: you mentioned this on the first page: "toties quoties" - Latin also has the phrases "tot... quot" and "totiens... quotiens" which come up a bit more frequently. Anyway, about nolens volens. I think "volens volans" sounds better (wishing, flying) or maybe "vellens vulnerans" (tearing out, damaging/injuring) [unfortunately they don't really make sense] 
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volens volans Oh, I dunno; it might just be roughly translated into "sweet dreams"! 
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