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I have been shopping for a new car for my sweet bride. This is not one of my favourite activities. Auto dealerships are not a place where I would likely be found, were it not for the necessity of purchasing an automobile.
Something has happened to the self-applied nomenclature for auto dealerships. They were dealerships for many decades. Now the salesmen (who are called things like "associates" or "customer service representatives") refer to the establishment by which they are employed as a "store."
To me, a store is a place which sells groceries or liquor or clothing or hardware, hence the grocery store, the liquor store, the clothing store and the hardware store. But the auto store?
What do you suppose it is about the sense of the word "store" which makes it seem misapplied to a place which sells cars?
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to me, you don't go to the liquor dealership to check out next year's beer brands, or to the hardware dealership to price the latest ice-scraper, or to the grocery dealership to kick the pretzels. neither do you go to the car store to pick up a pickup.
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Me and tsuwm, we are of one Accord.
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of one Accord
Cheapskates! Couldn't you a ford one each?
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well they couldn't very well call it an auto shop now could they?
store i think is an american ism. the brits go to the shops on the high street..american buy stuff in stores.
in the americas, a company --oh say like the north west trading company might have a small warehouse of 'stores' --and a trader might come in and trade in his skins, (which were stored in the building till the spring, when the waterways thawed) for some of the flour (50lb bags) or beans stored there. My father in law remembered his mother buying salt and pickles, and other 'stores' when he was a child.. (pre WWI) she would go down to the city (ie, leave the bronx and go to manhattan) by boat. (he thought me clever for buying 25lb of flour at time (i made all my own bread)
i suspect, in towns and villages in great brittan, most folks didn't buy flour by the 50lb bag.. they would by a weeks worth or two week worth.. 1--they had no room to have pantries, and if they did, why would the fill them with bags (which would be a problem in settled areas, where there was a resident rodent population) of flour. A large household would no doubt have a barrel for flour.. but how many households would that be?
getting back to automobile stores..
does the dealership have a store of cars? (dealer stock?)--
many dealership today do..
would you prefer:
auto vender--a machine vender instead of a vending machine?
auto provisioner?
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Something has happened to the self-applied nomenclature for auto dealerships
Well, I think you are all right. They are not a "store", but they want you to think of them as a "store".
They don't want you to think of them as a place where you go to check out the latest models, or to kick the tires.
They want you to think of them as a "Convenience Store" where you go to pick up your snacks without concerning yourself about the price, or your waist line [or climate change].
It's just the next evolution of sales execution.
The whole idea is to get us past the idea that shopping for a car is anything more than shopping for Doritos.
If they're smart, they'll throw in a Doritos with your Durango. :)
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the brits go to the shops on the high street..american buy stuff in stores
That’s close but not identical to my experience, Nu Yoik ;) I recognise the word store as quintessentially American when describing a mom ‘n’ pop small retail outfit, but in the UK it tends to only get used to refer to a larger outfit, as in ‘department store’.
I gather the etymology comes (via French) from a Latin word instaurare meaning ‘renew’.
In neither case is it natural to me, either, Father Steve, to go to a car store (sounds more like one of those dumps where imports are kept on an airfield pending distribution!)
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If they're smart, they'll throw in a Doritos with your Durango.
Since we are shopping for a Honda CR-V, maybe they would rather throw in Hostess Ho Hos.
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If you're buying an SUV, they should give you a Krispy Kreme. [You won't feel so guilty about the mileage.]
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w'all, it's jes' that downhome Bushit about being normal folks... don' want to shop at no dealership all hoity-toity lahk... I buy my car at the store...
formerly known as etaoin...
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The original distinction between a store and a shop was that things were made or worked on at a shop but at a store they just came in from wherever they were made and 'stored' there till someone bought them.
If the language change had gone the other way round y'all preescrips would just be puling and micturating about using the hoity-toity word 'dealership' for what was simply a store.
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Since a store is a place where things are stored until purchased, why not a car store? of troy said as much above.
Even though I haven't heard anyone till now speak of a car store, I don't have a problem with the terminology. As Faldage observed above, the word 'shop' connotes something that could be worked on. By calling a place a 'car store' rather than a 'car shop,' there is the connotation that these cars are right and ready to go.
'Car store' sounds friendly. It sounds quick. It sounds a little mindless and frivolous. It sounds like the kind of place one would easily put down $20,000.00 within a half hour, except, once you buy the thing, then it takes another hour or two to go through all the financing process and add-on's they try to talk you into, complete with PowerPoint presentation, which I refused to look at. "But you must. It's part of my job." "If you turn that PowerPoint on, I'm walking out of here."
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If the language change had gone the other way round y'all preescrips would just be puling and micturating about using the hoity-toity word 'dealership' for what was simply a store.
Indubitably ... because we are deeply-flawed human beings.
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Is it any wonder all of the nomenclature is changing? You can't get a regular USED car anymore... everything is PRE-OWNED.  Ladies and gentlemen, we have now reached the height of ridiculous.
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After the ride this morning, I brought the difference between ‘dealership’ and ‘store’ up with a fellow rider who sells cars for a living. I asked him if he and his fellow car salesmen called the place at which they worked a ‘dealership’ or a ‘store’. Without putting too much thought into it, he offhandedly said, “a store”. (I really don’t think he had actually ever thought about it, and just threw out what to him was the most sensible word to him at the time.)
As we talked it over, we discussed the fact that a dealership represents a specific manufacturer of a product: Ford, Toyota, Chevrolet, etc., and is licensed by each respective manufacturer to sell new Fords, Toyotas, or Chevrolets, etc. One thinks of such places as Ford, Toyota, or Chevrolet dealerships – perhaps a car store too, but also a dealership. Furthermore, consider that a licensed dealership buys its products only from the manufacturer, not a wholesaler. True: some car dealerships sell more than one brand of new car, but they are, nevertheless, still licensed by the respective manufacturer to sell those automobiles, hence, they are dealers of those cars, thus, 'dealerships'.
As far as I know, a store does not need a license from the manufacturer to sell the manufacturer’s products. The store only needs to purchase the products from either the manufacturer or a wholesaler, and have a place to sell them and customers to buy them. I’m sure one could find a store that is also a licensed ‘dealer’ of a particular product, but in my mind, that makes it both a store and a dealership.
In the end, he changed his mind and said that he worked at a ‘dealership’. Personally, I think there are valid arguments on both sides, but only as long as one recognizes that the two can and do exist simultaneously, in one entity, and that a ‘dealership’ is not just a hoity-toity word, but a word that describes a specific situation, or agreement between the manufacturer and the seller.
It’s not an accident that different words have different meanings, and are exclusively used in different places to describe different things. Neither is it a prescriptivist plot [written in jest] designed to limit anyone’s inalienable right to experiment with, play with, mangle, or abuse the language in any way he or she damn well pleases.
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Good points made, Dgeigh, about dealerships, but I think some stores have to have licenses to sell certain products. I don't think that licenses for sales are limited strictly to dealerships, licenses for pharmaceutical products being one quick example.
AHD had this general definition of 'store':
A place where merchandise is offered for sale
Stores for merchandise, commodities, wares--and would we include automobiles among those commodities? I think a dealership is a type of store with some specific features, such as the licensure you mention, but some of those specific features would also apply to some other types of stores. Dealership seems to be a bigger and grander type of store. Can't imagine having a Baskins-Robbins dealership!
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but some 'liquor stores' advertize themselves as 'dealers of fine wine' --or at least they do in NY!
this does vary state by state.. because of some obscure ruling about who can transport wine interstate (left over remnants of prohibbtion rules) about 34 states have 'limits' on who can or can't sell wine out of state. NY State vinyards can't sell directly to liquor stores, (they can sell directly at vinyard) they have to sell to wholesalers, who can distribute wines interstate. this puts them at a disadvantage with california wines. (which can sell directly) the internet has made the issue muddier.. (can vinyards sell to everyone in US/World directly (via the internet)? or do they have to have distributors handle out of state sales?
as for a baskin robin dealer.. well most baskin robins are franchises aren't they?
how exactly is a franchise different than a dealer?
some appliance stores call themselves dealerships too..how is a $3000 refridgerator different than a $30,000 car? (and how is it alike?)
obviously, terms like shop, store, dealer, franchize distributor, and vender have specific meanings, but their usage is blurred.
Vender seems to be limited to mechanical devises, (vending machines) and intinerant sales.
'home sales' (am-way, tupperware, candles, etc) seem to have distributors.
and some health items, like canes, wheelchairs, and hospital beds are sold by 'service providers' (even though they are mostly selling 'goods' not services.)
there there are also purvayors.. (which, now i think about it, i realize, i don't really know what a purvayor is!)
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I think if I heard someone say they were going to the "auto store" here in the remote rural high deserts of the Western US I would be just ever so slightly confused but just assume they were going to the auto parts store. Perhaps I would assume that they were going to the auto parts department in some superstore a.k.a. WalMart.
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how exactly is a franchise different than a dealer?
Good question.
A dealer is just someone who makes a deal with a manufacturer of a product such as a car, to sell the manufacturer's product(s) exclusively at retail, but this "dealer" uses his own name, example, "XYX Chevrolet", and apart from commiting to a possible annual sales quota, and agreeing to provide certain standard services, such as warranty and other repairs, the dealer has complete freedom to choose his own location, design the look and layout of his dealership, set his own prices, and handle his own advertising and marketing.
A franchise owner is a complete thrall of the franchisor company, say McDonald's. Everything has to be done in cookie cutter fashion according to the franchisor's rules and specifications, including site selection and building design and layout, product pricing, signage, advertising and marketing, menu, packaging, kitchen and other operations, literally everything. The franchise owner can lose his/her franchise if they deviate from the specified formula in any manner.
In return for being a thrall of the franchisor, the franchisee usually makes money with a proven business model year after year without exercising any independent business judgment about anything. The franchisee is relying on the proven formula, not his/her own independent judgment, to succeed in the business.
The dealer, on the other hand, typically makes a bigger investment, and the dealer relies more on his/her own independent business judgment, although dealers benefit from a sharing of "best practices" amongst their fellow dealers in other locations, and, of course, the manufacturer supports this kind of pooling of experiences because it benefits the company as well as its dealers.
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Well, that's a phrase worth committing to memory, plutarch! You've given us someone loftier-sounding to think of when we gaze upon those golden arches. For pure sound, I'd much rather be the thrall of a franchisor company than Ronald Mc.
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I'd much rather be the thrall of a franchisor company than Ronald Mc
Most franchisees are enthralled with their thralldom as long as they make money hand over chicken fingers every year.
No-one enjoys being in thrall to debt or poverty. :)
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the dealer has complete freedom to choose his own location, design the look and layout of his dealership, and handle his own advertising and marketing
Not in the UK - many of these points are covered in fiendish detail in the agreement, and given that the dealer will have to foot a bill for perhaps $45,000 in order to get in the game (special tools, etc!) it must be open to debate how these arrangements differ in principle to a franchise. It was only the intervention of the EC regulatory authorities that broke open the complete cartel previously worked by the major car makers.
But even though I'm a mild-mannered descriptivist, I must confess to hating the spread of the word 'instore', as in "Half-price wheel nuts - ask instore!"
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A franchise is a license to use the business name and model of an existing concern. Generally, I believe, the product sold in a franchise is owned by the franchisee. So, when local McDonald's owner sells you a hamburger, he does so with meat, bread and condiment from his own inventory.
A dealer, however, is an agent between the seller and the buyer. Although you can buy a vehicle out of existing stock at an auto dealership, I believe that the beginnings of the industry and current practice for many purchases is to order a vehicle through the dealership which is then made and shipped by the manufacturer for delivery.
If you wanted to be technical about it, whether you are doing business with a dealership or a store (a single entity can be both) depends on the terms under which you buy: through special order, or out of existing stock.
[end-of-rambling-thoughts emoticon]
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assume they were going to the auto parts store.
This makes sense to me. To me, the "auto store" is where you buy replacement floor mats and spark plugs and things like that.
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obviously, terms like shop, store, dealer, franchize distributor, and vender have specific meanings, but their usage is blurred.
...which wouldn't happen if prescriptivists ruled the world.
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if prescriptivists ruled the world
...'cause we'd all speak Olde Englisc or sumptin ;)
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'cause we'd all speak Olde Englisc or sumptin ;)
Perhaps, but we'd speak it so WELL!
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A franchise is a license to use the business name and model of an existing concern
Zackly. I have a major car dealership (multi-affiliated) as a client, and it's given me a real insight into how excruciating a grip on the short & curlies is exacted by the auto makers. For example, Joe Bloggs can't call himeself 'Joe Bloggs Majormotors' (where you can substitute whichever brand you want for the last word)except in certain very rigidly controlled ways (even down to typeface, size of type, etc, going way beyong the normal advertising criteria of brand reinforcement); on the other hand he needs the credibility offered by the 'franchise' of the recognised dealership which is only available on dictated terms; his advertising budget has to be placed on a schedule agreed by the manufacturer; his stock of cars won't always be actually owned by him (there are all kinds of weird deals!)... so I have becoem aware that the theoretical disctinctions that we might understand between the two terms is not so apparent on the forecourt.
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if prescriptivists ruled the world.
Ah, yes:
OK. We've got the patent run through and permission from all the requisite federal agencies. I'm sure we'll have the necessary language approved by the Academie within the next few years and then we'll be able to go into production.
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And what's in store productionwise for the slotstuk, de apotheose? (Hey, the 'ap' page has been great fun this morning.)
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Sparteye, thanks for the thoughtful lawyer's technical explanation. Dealer = agent: now it all makes sense to me!
And thanks, Fr Steve, for bringing this up. I'd often wondered about it myself.
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so I have become aware that the theoretical disctinctions that we might understand between the two terms is not so apparent on the forecourt
How true, Maverick. It all comes down in the end to "bargaining power".
The parties to a contract can make any agreement they wish. The party with the strongest bargaining position always comes out ahead. The ordinary people who buy the shares of the automakers for their retirement fund wouldn't have it any other way.
The automakers do need to give their dealer minions some incentive to invest. They do need dealers to sell their cars. And cars are not hamburgers.
You can sell a hamburger the same way in every city in North America, if not throughout the world, as McDonald's has proven.
But it takes some entrepreneurial imagination to sell cars successfully in different markets in different cities under constantly changing economic conditions.
Car dealers have demonstrated that they have more of that localized entrepreneurial imagination than do the automakers themselves, which explains why car dealships are not all franchises.
It is quite true that "dealer = agent", but that equation doesn't really set car dealerships apart from franchisees in the minds of most people.
"Agent" is a legal term. There can be all kinds of agents, commission sales agents, such as the "Avon Lady" or real estate agents, who don't make a significant or any investment in the supplier's product.
Or there can be car dealership agents who make a far greater investment in their agency relationship than commission sales agents.
And, certainly to the mind of the average person, a franchisee is the agent of the franchisor.
The franchisee sells only the products and services supplied by the franchisor [or products and services made or rendered according to the franchisor's precise specifications], and tho they own their own business, just as a car dealer does, they are even more rigidly contolled by the franchisor than a car dealer is by his supplier.
So in the mind of the average person, a franchisee might be even more of an "agent" than a car dealer.
Anyway, that is my take on it. The average person doesn't have any deep understanding of the legal niceties associated with the simple term "agent" in all of its variations.
Some "agents" are "exclusive agents". Some are "fiduciary agents" like your lawyer, or accountant or stockbroker. Some are just mail courier agents.
And some are "secret agents" who, if Ian Fleming has it right, don't have to go to a car dealership to get their car, or their licence to kill, either.
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... for pointing out over in Information & Announcements how to avoid long-winded and otherwise annoying posts. 
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Dealer = agent: now it all makes sense to me!No offence, ASp. I was just expressing my own point of view. BTW get ready for the Tweel at your nearest car store. "Reinventing the Wheel"
New York Times, Monday, January 3, 2005Extract: "To be sure, the Segway would be a very small market for Michelin, the world's leading tiremaker, but it is an apt demonstration vehicle for the Tweel. The first commercial use of the integrated tire and wheel assembly will be on the stair-climbing iBOT wheelchair, another product developed by Dean Kamen, the Segway's inventor; Michelin said it would announce another application at the Detroit auto show next week. The tiremaker has high expectations for the Tweel project. The concept of a single-piece tire and wheel assembly is one the company expects to spread to passenger cars and, eventually, to construction equipment and aircraft. The Tweel offers a number of benefits beyond the obvious attraction of being impervious to nails in the road. The tread will last two to three times as long as today's radial tires, Michelin says, and when it does wear thin it can be retreaded." http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/03/automobiles/03cars.html?oref=login
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There is a large...business...here in town, where several makes of automobiles are sold, all under the one business-owner's name. The manufacturers are not (as far as I know) related commercially; there are a variety of both foreign and domestic cars. So in this sense of being able to pick and choose brands, perhaps this kind of car dealership is in fact a store. ("Nobody walks away", heh.)
Speaking of ordering from a dealer--I can remember my father doing that with no problem. He'd tell the salesman what color he wanted, for ex., and the salesman was happy to oblige (and not only that, drove it to our house when it arrived). Nowadays, you'd get a pitying look at best, and laughed off the lot at worst, if you tried to get the salesman to order something from the factory.
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re: You can sell a hamburger the same way in every city in North America, if not throughout the world, as McDonald's has proven.
while Mcdodo's does have a formula, it does change slightly from city to city and regionaly.
the stardard formula for mcDodo's burgers includes both mustard and ketchup. ---but not in NYC and surounding area. (all of LI, parts of NJ, Westerchester county, and parts of Conneticut) In this area (a huge part of market) convention has it that you put mustard on dogs, and ketchup on burgers. NEVER MUSTARD ON BURGERS. Yeah, there are plenty of personal exceptions (i like ketchup on dogs, too).
McDodo's has 'changed the formula/receipt' here to conform with local custom. if you like mustard and ketchup on your burger,(mcDodo's 'standard formual) and expect to get it served that way, don't come to NY. (mustard packets are available, you can add your own)
IN Japan, the buger is dressed with 'Bulldog' sause. bulldog sause is a condiment something like a mixture half and half of A-1 steak sause and ketchup. (its spicer, darker, and less sweet) and shredded cabbage. (not lettuce) the pickles are different too..
blanket general statements, You can sell a hamburger the same way in every city in North America are a usually (but not always!) going to be percieved as sloppy. and the post that contain them, wordy.
in this croud, almost everyone will know one or more exceptions, and disagree with a general statement.
it is a rare case indeed, that a general statement is entirely true. in many cases, its only superficial true. if you are going to make long posts, and fill them with general statements, everyone will disagree with you, (some will not comment, but they will still disagree with the general statement). they will tend to ignore post that they see as irrelivant, (since the post is likely to contain general statements.) eventually, it will seem as if there is a conspiracy against you.
have you noticed? Another general convention here to put quotes, either from other poster, or cut 'n paste ones from other sorces in a differnt *color text...so its clear at a glance which words and ideas are our own, and which are some one elses. *or to set them off in some other way.
it is rare for a quote not to be set off in same way that makes it clear its it not the posters own words. IN ADDITION, most will post a url link to the document they are quoting from.
color, bold, italics, etc. are also used for emphisis.
--which can be confusing.. but somehow, we manage to distigish between quotes and emphatic comments.
this might not be relevant here(that is this particular thread)--but since i am talking about generalities i though i would mention it.
Yeah, there are no rules.. except, of course for all the rules!
The sun will come up tomorrow.. (unless of course there is an eclipse at dawn.. in which case it might very well seem different!)
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