|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I think y'all are making too much of the literal meaning of these auxiliary verbs. Apparently, Vulgar Latin had periphrastic futures in debere, habere, ire, vadere, velle, and venire (to withhold; to have; to go; to walk; to will, wish; and to come). Literal meaning doesn't have a whole lot to do with it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176
member
|
|
OP
member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176 |
making too much of the literal meaning
Can we really make too much of a word’s (auxiliary verb, noun, whatever) literal meaning? If literal meaning can be dismissed so easily, what is the need for dictionaries? For that matter, what would be the point of AWAD? Why would anyone care about a word’s literal meaning if no one else did? All one would need to do is make up his or her own definition for the word and use it. Doing so might make communication rather difficult, of course, but if literal meaning were not important, who would care?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
own definition for the word and use it
uh-huh. That's what we do quite nicely ;)
And the whole process is one of negotiated confusion.
Dictionaries are not a navigation tool for crossing the prairies of experience: they are just an old man stumbling along a trail saying "yep, sure been a lot of people passing on this track..."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Can we really make too much of a word’s (auxiliary verb, noun, whatever) literal meaning?
In this case, yes. It's performing a function that transcends its literal meaning. What does the literal meaning have to do with any of those various future auxiliary verbs I mentioned that were used in Vulgar Latin in place of the conjugated form of the verb in Classical Latin? Perhaps at some time there was some rationale that went on in the minds of the speakers of Vulgar Latin. Whatever it was is lost and we are left with the remnants. We understand I have to as a modal form of the verb expressing compulsion just as we understand I'm going to as a future. Inquire, if you will, into the origins, but don't bother trying to parse it according to the present day literal meaning of the words involved.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176
member
|
|
OP
member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 176 |
uh-huh. That's what we do quite nicely ;)
And the whole process is one of negotiated confusion.
Certainly that happens, on occasion. But it doesn’t seem to be the rule, though. Consider that everyone posting on this thread has, for the most part, decided to call off the negotiations, avoid confusion, and use the accepted definitions of the words they chose to use, as found in dictionaries. I see no evidence that anyone has made up his or her own definition for a word and used it.
We understand I have to as a modal form of the verb expressing compulsion
Yes, we do. But we were discussing, ‘I’ve got to’ or ‘I have got to’, not simply ‘I have to’.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Dgeigh, this may help a speck, though for me parts of it raise more questions:
'DO', 'BE' and 'HAVE' are the English auxiliary verbs used in a negative structure, a question or to show tense. ...
3/ 'HAVE' is used with the Past Participle to form the Perfect Aspect Under Perfect Aspect, it has:
The perfect aspect is formed with the auxiliary verb 'to have' + the past participle. It is used for finished actions that are relevant to the time referred to or ones that continue up to the time referred to:
She's worked here for donkey's years. (this continues up to now)
I've lost my keys. (a past action that is relevant now as I can't open the door) From: http://www.usingenglish.com/glossary/auxiliary-verb.htmlI was pleased that one of the sites I looked at called aux. verbs helping verbs; that is the term I was taught but couldn't remember.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
In reply to:
Yes, speakers and listeners can invest meaning in whatever they agree upon. But why make communication unnecessarily awkward? As I originally wrote, “Wouldn’t it be clearer and more concise to say, ‘I must go’ …?” The same meaning would be communicated without all the ambiguity.
But, but, but. must, have to and 've got to are slightly different in meaning.
I must go -- it's my decision that it's time to go
I've got to go -- the obligation is imposed by some outside agency.
I have to go (to the airport) - as a matter of routine every Wednesday.
I've got to go (to the airport) -- now.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I must go -- it's my decision that it's time to go But--what about the case of, "I must have this job completed by tomorrow afternoon--bosses' orders"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I think that any attempts to pin down meanings are going to uncover some specific meanings that are used in many cases by certain individuals, but won't unveil any overarching rules. This whole topic is subject to idiolects. One person may have some tendencies that have exceptions and are totally out of sync with other persons' idiolects.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
<quote>But--what about the case of, "I must have this job completed by tomorrow afternoon--bosses' orders"?
</quote]
Possibly there might be a tendency to avoid "have to have", but if we think of the two sentences:
I must finish this by tomorrow afternoon -- boss's orders
I have to finish this by tomorrow afternoon -- boss's orders
it seems to me that I'm taking more responsibility for the situation than in the second. As a teenager, which would you have been more likely to say:
I have to be home by 10
I must be home by 10.
I think the first one is more likely to arise from a parent-imposed curfew while the second is more likely to be continued 'because I want to watch Star Trek'.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,915
Posts229,892
Members9,197
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
365
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
