#13637
01/09/2001 3:23 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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to link or to quote; another question begging to be asked... <<the phrase actually comes from another sense of the word beg; that is to take for granted without warrant -- here are a couple of citations: This was to assert or beg the thing in Question. Many say it is begging the point in dispute.>> by the way, those [<< >>] were guillemets just then, quotation marks in some of the Romance languages. 
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#13638
01/09/2001 3:38 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 1 |
Are we referring to individual items? If so, "fewer" is correct, as in "She ate fewer than ten wolverines during her vacation."
Are we referring to a quantity? Then "less," as in "He avoided prison by driving at 50 miles an hour or less."
I lean toward the items, rather than the quantity.
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#13639
01/10/2001 4:16 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 29
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Sep 2000
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Well, if the thread is messy we can only blame the sewing confusion!
Tapi, saya orang bodoh saja!
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#13640
01/10/2001 4:22 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
Another exception to this is with the ter- form, which has to use oleh for the agent.
Yes, the people I asked said Baju saya terbawa oleh adik saya and Baju saya terbawa adik saya (My little brother/sister took my shirt by mistake) are both acceptable, but the form without oleh is more colloquial.
Bingley
Bingley
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#13641
01/10/2001 5:20 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Sewing confusion" sounds very genteel indeed! Thanks for the offer but I don't think fine needlework is really for me. But time travel to Byzantium in the 13th C: now that's a tempting thought!At least you got the context, PS. It was quite intentional. Byzantium wouldn't have been all that great, really. Especially if it was in 1453. Not a good year for them, actually. Unless you were an Ottoman, of course. BTW, I love the play on words in your handle ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13642
01/10/2001 9:44 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
>quotation marks in some of the Romance languages <<Not inverted commas, then?>>
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#13643
01/10/2001 1:32 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
<<Not inverted commas, then?>>
states Jo
beating me to the punch!
Thanks Tsuwm! when the thread about quote marks started, i was wondering if the inverted comma's had always been used, or just used since type face was around.
"Inverted comma's" sounds like a printers/typesetters term-- and since there are so many technical terms that have been around for so long--mechanical technology has really been around for so long--term are old..clutch-- as a mechanical device-- has been around since the 13c... and printing presses almost as long... that we just don't even think about them.
It seem logical to me that there was always a way of saying quote in a notational short hand-- but the only way i know how to do it is " " and i wondered how it was done before printers started using inverted comma's!
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#13644
01/10/2001 5:36 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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>Unless you were an Ottoman, of course.
Well, I'm bigger than that not quite big enough to be a davenport -- sort of prefer to think of myself as a love seat.
TEd
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#13645
01/10/2001 6:49 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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...sort of prefer to think of myself as a love seat
You're pretty phat but.
(Couldn't resist again.)
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#13646
01/10/2001 8:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Helen postulates that "inverted commas" was a printer's term. 'Fraid not. I was a printer for fifteen years and never ran across the term "professionally". I had a quick flick through my apprenticeship notes, which I still treasure, along with the paper's style book this morning, and although they are shown, they are not dignified with any term other than "quotes". Interestingly enough, "single quotation mark" is mentioned, as is apostrophe, but one is not shown as a synonym for the other.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13647
01/10/2001 11:12 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
Jackie
I'm the only one looking for a disposable batchelorperson but. Off my patch!
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#13648
01/11/2001 2:11 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I'm the only one looking for a disposable batchelorperson butYou go, girlfriend! Whatcha want him for, murder for hire? Shoot, might as well let one of 'em take the fall--everything that goes wrong is their fault anyway! 
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#13649
01/11/2001 6:06 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
we can only blame the sewing confusionTo me, the confusion lies in the weaving rather than the sewing 
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#13650
01/11/2001 11:09 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 31
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 31 |
At least you got the context, PS. It was quite intentional.I didn't doubt it for a second. BTW, I love the play on words in your handle ... Oh, you are too kind. Actually I've been waiting to debut Phyllis somewhere appropriate for years now; I can't believe my luck in finding the perfect party to introduce my ingenue to the world. Wsieber wrote; To me, the confusion lies in the weaving rather than the sewingI'm not sure who first used "threads" in the context of electronic notice boards. But its origins probably aren't interesting since the metaphor isn't strikingly original or clever. But with all this talk of sewing and weaving it occurred to me that there is another allusion which probably wasn't thought of at the time but is even more appropriate: lace-making! All those bobbins of thread intricately intertwined to make a fine and filigreed, sophisticated fabric. Or an unholy mess if you get your bobbins mixed up.
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#13651
01/11/2001 3:32 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 29
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Sep 2000
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even more appropriate: lace-making!
That's it! Not chatting, but tatting!
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#13652
01/11/2001 4:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Not chatting, but tatting!
My family used "tat" for useless stuff or rags,etc. Glad to see OED agrees!
Tra laaa
wow
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#13653
01/11/2001 4:12 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
In reply to:
not chatting but tatting
Are you sure that won't make things a bit tatty?
Wonder if/how tatty is related to the verb tat.
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#13654
01/11/2001 5:49 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Please see "functionality" on another thread...
Language is "never" larger than the individual! The context in which it resides may be. Usually not.
... but clearly, only if it's necessary.
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#13655
01/11/2001 5:59 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
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>I'm not sure who first used "threads" in the context of electronic notice boards.
Someone between Arachne and a hard drive?
TEd
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#13656
01/11/2001 9:13 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Surely "threads" just comes from "the thread of conversation"?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13657
01/12/2001 4:40 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 29
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Sep 2000
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Musick asserted that:
Language is "never" larger than the individual!
But how can it not be? Can you say that there are no places where language is that you are not?
The language of the individual (at any moment) cannot be greater than the individual(granted by definition,) but surely the language per se is greater than any individual, being, as it is, a thing common to all. Do you see where we may be misunderstanding each other, and can you elaborate on that and your assertion?
Thanks,
mm
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#13658
01/12/2001 7:24 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 31
newbie
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newbie
Joined: Jan 2001
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My assumption exactly. And the metaphor has now been extended to bulletin boards.
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#13659
01/12/2001 7:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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One form of tat might be useless, rags, etc., but tat is a back form of tatting-- a form of lace making-- Cap't kiwi might know about it, since tatting is done with a shuttle, and has three basic forms, threads (straight pieces) loops, and mesh-- and tatted mesh is almost identical to "fish net"-- except the thread and mesh is much, much finer. but the mesh is formed the same way one makes a fish net. The threads are just a bit heaver than sewing thread-- silk buttonhole thread would be too thick-- and the mesh is very fine. but the process is the same.. Meshing is the hardest tatting to do, since you need to work with a shuttle not much thicker than a sewing needle. Thread and loops shuttles are small, about the size of a small/medium tube of women's lipstick and the size doesn't effect your work, but with mesh, the finer your shuttle the finer your mesh. So any of you guys who have ever repaired a fishing net--you know the basics of tatting. Thread and loop tatting is all done with hitches and half hitches, similar to netting.. but close together, in miniture, "picot's "(Pee co's) are created by leaving an excess of thread between stitches to form a single thread loop... when my son became a boy scout and had to learn knots--he was flabbergasted by how many i knew, and how fast i could tie them! (when i was totally crazy-- i tatted lace for a dolls underwear!--then i looked for something more productive to do with my time.. and took up computers. fine choice i made there!  curiously, bones knit -- but our threads cross, (so we are embroidering our language?)
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#13660
01/12/2001 9:11 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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We are both watching the same river from opposite banks. You assert the pure logic to prove my point (even though I reserve the reason for using quotes for the next response), and you claim, as did I, that it is within the context of all languages that one person's understanding of language resides. Language is always part of the individual who uses it, yet usually not part of how we understand it (with the happy exception of what most seek to do so thorough a board such as this.) " ...is "never" larger than the individual". This is for the same reason that - when Billie Holiday starts singing, I will know it is her within a note or two!!! I whole heartedly assert that... per se
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#13661
01/12/2001 9:23 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I think I'm getting needled. Every once in a while you have to break your thread, tie it off, and start again. (I see this "thread" throughout) I just got here..! I'm still spending the time it takes to at least patch the quilt on the worn side that is missing certain 'spec's. Yous guys already are efficient (or have learned what to ignore)...........I take that back! 
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#13662
01/13/2001 5:42 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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HOT declares: Cap't kiwi might know about it, since tatting is done with a shuttle, and has three basic forms, threads (straight pieces) loops, and meshHelen, I'd love to know the logic that got you to the point where you decided I might know about it! But funnily enough - my dear old Mum taught us all, boys and girls, to knit, crochet and tat. If I'd shown the slightest interest, I'd probably also know how to operate a sewing machine, but I'm not as green as I'm cabbage-looking. As a matter of fact, I taught SWMBO the basics of tatting. But dolls' underwear?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13663
05/30/2001 3:54 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
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as this is one of the [many] recurring themes hereabouts, I thought that the following might be of some interest to folks: [from alt.english.usage]
the the "hoi polloi" debate
---------------------------
Yes, "hoi" means "the" in Greek, but the first 5 citations in the
OED, and the most famous use of this phrase in English (in Gilbert
and Sullivan's operetta _Iolanthe_), put "the" in front of "hoi".
This is not a unique case: words like "alchemy", "alcohol",
"algebra", "alligator", and "lacrosse" incorporate articles from
other languages, but can still be prefixed in English with "the".
"The El Alamein battle" (which occurred in Egypt during World War
II), sometimes proffered as a phrase with three articles, actually
contains only two: _alamein_ is Arabic for "two flags" (which is
appropriate for a town on the border between Egypt and Libya), and
does not contain the Arabic article _al_.
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