#13217
01/04/2001 10:49 AM
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I posted in another thread recently a brief synopsis of abortive attempts in New Zealand to revert to Maori placenames, even where these were rarely, if ever, used prior to the arrival of the Europeans.
A prime (and fairly visible) example was Taranaki (a large, singular volcanic cone in the westernmost area of the North Island). It started as Taranaki, was renamed Mt Egmont, reverted to Taranaki, but is, I notice, again being called Mt Egmont.
Official place name reversion is one thing; public acceptance of the status of the old (new) names is another entirely.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13218
01/04/2001 5:35 PM
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Versailles and Toledo
And then there's Cairo, Illinois, which the locals pronounce in syrupy fashion "Karo". You could amass quite a collection of these alternative pronunciation places.
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#13219
01/04/2001 5:39 PM
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addict
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One of my favorites is the name Bourgeois (name of a street, a bookstore, and a family name in the area) in Cincinnati - which is pronounce burr-joyce.
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#13220
01/04/2001 5:49 PM
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directly to the north of Harpers Ferry, WV there's the town of Bolivar, named after the SA general, but pronounced BAHL -i-ver.
TEd
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#13221
01/04/2001 9:02 PM
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A hundred miles or so south of BAHL-i-ver, WV, is Buena Vista, VA, pronounced, charmingly, BYOO-na VEE-sta.
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#13222
01/04/2001 9:14 PM
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In reply to:
Man is an old English word meaning human being. Person is an old Etruscan word meaning mask. People is also an old Etruscan word but the AHD doesn't say what it meant.
Person "is" an old Etruscan word meaning mask? My dictionary has the following: "[L. persona, a player's mask, perh. from Etruscan phersu, masked figures." It seems to me that person "is" an English word, one whose origin can be traced back to Etruscan.
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#13223
01/04/2001 9:48 PM
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No one complains: It seems to me that person "is" an English word, one whose origin can be traced back to Etruscan.
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#13224
01/04/2001 10:01 PM
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In Wellington, we have a Marjoribanks Street, pronounced "Mah-jory-banks". Whoa!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13225
01/04/2001 10:22 PM
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> Would you call it cultural arrogance or just cultural stupidity if a town uses a foreign city name but mispronounces it?
Well, once this town is your town its name it’s no longer “a foreign city name” but your city name so, I think, you are entitled to pronounce it as you wish.
There are people, as is my case, who cannot pronounce some foreign syllables properly or have to make a considerable effort for doing it. I have always thought that if you cannot pronounce a foreign word in an acceptable way you had better pronouncing it as if it was written in your native language. It surely will be better than inventing a new pronunciation.
I don’t know who started it, but a couple of years ago almost everybody in my city started pronouncing CD-ROM as ceh deh room. It was too much for me, I think that the “o” in ROM is one of the few vocals that English an Spanish pronounce similarly and some snob made this room pronunciation up and everybody found it fashionable. I think I had never imposed a way of pronouncing anything in my company before but, after getting fed-up with hearing it, I banned this way of pronouncing this word.
Maybe I’ve got a dictator inside me struggling to get out.
Juan Maria.
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#13226
01/05/2001 9:29 AM
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No-one should be expected to pronounce foreign names correctly. It is of course odd to hear someone mangle a French name: you'd think everyone would have picked up enough French to know the basics.
If you do know how to pronounce a language, I don't think it's necessary to drop into an exact foreign accent: just use the closest equivalent sounds in your own language, so that the name flows smoothly with the rest of the sentence.
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#13227
01/05/2001 3:39 PM
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Morjoribanks
I have been given to understand that in the UK, this is pronounced Marchbanks, like Cholmondly is pronounced Chumly.
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#13228
01/05/2001 3:59 PM
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juanmaria contribuye: almost everybody in my city started pronouncing CD-ROM as ceh deh room.
Do you mean they pronounce room como rom en (por ejemplo) rompope. En inglés pronunciamos room como rum en rumiar.
In Spanglish, as spoken widely in the US Southwest and many large cities such as Mayami, FL and Nueva York, many words are taken directly from English with the English spelling retained and pronounced as in English but with Spanish endings, e.g., emailear, to e-mail. The pronunciation is as if it were spelled imelear
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#13229
01/05/2001 5:15 PM
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BYB pondered: I have been given to understand that in the UK, this is pronounced Marchbanks, like Cholmondly is pronounced Chumly.
Precisely. I got caught out a couple of times when I first came to Wellington, because I had been taught that it was pronounced "marshbanks". Only no one in Wellington had ever heard of it. When I wrote it down, hey presto! they all knew where I was talking about.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13230
01/05/2001 7:09 PM
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CapKiwi chimed in with In Wellington, we have a Marjoribanks Street, pronounced "Mah-jory-banks". Whoa!I don't suppose there's any chance that the very entertaining Mongolian barbecue restaurant is still alive and well in Marjoribanks Street? At least Marjoribanks Street sounds as it looks to us non-rhotic Kiwis. My sister lived for several years in Beauchamp St, Karori, and it was only just before she moved that I learned that 1) it was named for Katherine Mansfield's Daddy, and b) it should be said Beecham. 
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#13231
01/05/2001 8:25 PM
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Max asks: I don't suppose there's any chance that the very entertaining Mongolian barbecue restaurant is still alive and well in Marjoribanks Street?Well, if the pile of skulls, the blood running down the gutter, the small, shaggy ponies tied up everywhere, pointy, sharp objects flying about and yelling and screaming are anything to go by, yes. But, of course, it could be just another normal Friday night in Courtenay Place ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13232
01/06/2001 7:39 AM
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>Do you mean they pronounce room como rom en (por ejemplo) rompope. En inglés pronunciamos room como rum en rumiar.
--Start Spanish--:
La pronunciación que se puso de moda era: ce-de-rum, no ci-di-rom imitando al Ingles o ce-de-rom como se debe decir en Español.
--End spanish--
It's very common among people in computing using a sort of Spanglish-of-the-trade, "deletear", "renamear", "shutdownear", and my favorite "atachar" or "atachamiento". I can't find a better word for the files attached on email.
Juan Maria.
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#13233
01/06/2001 3:38 PM
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I do remember watching a series of TV programmes called The Silk Road in Singapore about 15 years ago. It was a travelogue retracing the route of the Silk Road from China to Constantinople (Konstantinopolis?), later to be called, by English speakers at any rate, Istanbul (I freely admit I do not know how close to the Turkish name that is). Any way, I believe the programmes were actually made in Japanese and then dubbed into English in Singapore. In the first few programmes, which dealt with the Chinese end of the road, all the Chinese place names were given correct Chinese pronunciations -- with tones! With 5 or 6 names to a sentence all semblance to English intonation was lost. But if you're going to insist on Co^te d'Ivoire rather than Ivory Coast why not insist on the correct tonal pronunciation for Beijing?
Bingley
Bingley
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#13234
01/06/2001 8:03 PM
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Morjoribanks is pronounced Marchbanks, like Cholmondly is pronounced Chumly.
I understand that and the fact Beauchamp is Beecham but howthehell do you get SinGin out of St. John?
wow
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#13235
01/06/2001 9:03 PM
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yeah... or Throat-warbler Mangrove from Raymond Luxury-Yacht? 
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#13236
01/07/2001 12:15 AM
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Poster: tsuwm
Subject: Re: Odd pronunciations
yeah... or Throat-warbler Mangrove from Raymond Luxury-Yacht?Dear Tsuwm, Is this an answer to my St.John (SinGin) query. If so I am clueless ... or incredibly uninformed wow
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#13237
01/07/2001 12:40 AM
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Wow,
Chomondeley (pronounced chumly) has French origins. No firm idea about either St John or Marjoribanks. I suspect a studied upper class English drawl has most to do with it, since both are "upper class" names. I went to school with a St John from England and, boy, did he catch hell from all us self-righteous little Kiwis for mispronouncing his own name as "SinJin"!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13238
01/07/2001 1:55 AM
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I have an acquaintance who insists on "correcting" people on their pronunciations of foreign place names. Especially annoying is his insistence on interjecting "Pra-HA" when some poor schmuck mentions Prague. Just embarrassing...
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#13239
01/07/2001 2:29 AM
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There is a Bavarian community in Minnestora called New Prague. I wonder how your friend would react hearing the natives insist: "The first thing you need to know about New Prague is that it's pronounced "New PRAY-G", not "New PRAHG"." (no one knows why)
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#13240
01/07/2001 2:43 AM
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In reply to:
Poster: tsuwm
Subject: Re: Odd pronunciations
yeah... or Throat-warbler Mangrove from Raymond Luxury-Yacht?
Dear Tsuwm,
Is this an answer to my St.John (SinGin) query. If so I am clueless ... or incredibly uninformed
I was piling on, mom. while the Brits are well-known for extra letters in their orthography, when it comes to orthoepy, they have a tendency to lose track of whole bunches of them. Monty Python was known to (also) ridicule this trait, the most risible example being the one I chose above.
another aside: why do you suppose that orthoepy has two (2) accepted pronunciations?
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#13241
01/07/2001 2:34 PM
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From Capital Kiwi : St John from England and, boy, did he catch hell from all us self-righteous little Kiwis for mispronouncing his own name as "SinJin"!Your delicacy of feeling noted, however I like SinGin as it has a more edgy feel to it, slightly dangerous and intriguing. Something every young boy aspires to n'est ce pas? wow
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#13242
01/07/2001 5:58 PM
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No, it wasn't the softened "g" that got him hell. In fact, I think "j" is more correct that "g", as the "sin" and the "jin" are run together.
In fact, it was our attitude of "why not [Saynt Jon], you precious little bastard? 'Cos that's how it's bloody-well spelled!"
Don't start thinking that at 13 or 14 we were intellectual little girlie-swots, because it weren't true!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13243
01/08/2001 11:48 AM
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But if you're going to insist on Co^te d'Ivoire rather than Ivory Coast why not insist on the correct tonal pronunciation for Beijing?
Well exactly. Syllabic tone is unnatural in English so shouldn't be used when speaking English. One good principle is: if possible (which includes "if you know them") use the closest comfortable English sounds to the foreign sounds. No-one should be expected to know or reproduce Chinese tones.
The case of Co^te d'Ivoire is entirely different. This used to be called Ivory Coast in English, then the English name of the country was changed by explicit government decree, and the new name has accordingly been taken up by official bodies such as the UN. What better or clearer reason could there be for you to use the new name of something?
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#13244
01/08/2001 8:39 PM
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In reply to:
The case of Co^te d'Ivoire is entirely different. This used to be called Ivory Coast in English, then the English name of the country was changed by explicit government decree, and the new name has accordingly been taken up by official bodies such as the UN. What better or clearer reason could there be for you to use the new name of something?
You had best be careful, Nicholas!From now on, should you have any occasion to mention the name of New Zealand's highest peak, you had jolly well better use its official, government sanctioned, leally recognised name - Aoraki/Mt. Cook. The other NZ peak that Capital Kiwi mentioned is also officially bilingually labelled - Taranaki/Mt. Egmont. Any failure on your part to use these politically imposed designations will be punishable by accusations of inconsistency, accusations fired by me from Aotearoa/New Zealand 
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#13245
01/09/2001 3:59 AM
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{Mild and mendacious emoticon] But, Max, what if he calls it "Aorangi"? Just wondering ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13246
01/09/2001 4:16 AM
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CapK asked impishly But, Max, what if he calls it "Aorangi"? Just wondering ...Not good enough. NicholasW has clearly stated his view that one must always use the official, legal designations, so using Nth Island Maori would be unacceptable - Aoraki/Mt. Cook or nothing!
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#13247
01/09/2001 4:45 AM
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[Satisfaction at having hooked one's fish emoticon] Oh!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13248
01/09/2001 6:58 AM
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In reply to:
[Satisfaction at having hooked one's fish emoticon]
Shona has his own emoticon? And you hooked it?
Bingley
Bingley
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#13249
01/09/2001 8:22 AM
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Aoraki/Mt Cook
But I always do leap on new names I learn. You can accuse me of ignorance rather than inconsistency if I get them wrong. It's a great burden on the memory, I can tell you. The Grampians in Victoria are now Gariwerd, and Mt Kosciusko is now Mt Kosciuszko. Durban is now eThekwini and Pretoria is Tshwane -- or at least these are the municipalities. The Republic of Kyrgyzstan became the Kyrgyz Republic in May 1993. The constitution of Maldives says the official name is Republic of Maldives but goes on and explicitly refers to it as the Maldives and as State of the Maldives. Saint Lucia announced that it would always use the spelling Saint, not St, but the stamps continue to use St. I've got notebooks full of this stuff!
What's written on Aotearoa stamps these days?
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#13250
01/09/2001 8:58 AM
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NicholasW begs: What's written on Aotearoa stamps these days?
"New Zealand". Whadelse?
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#13251
01/09/2001 9:01 AM
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Shona has his own emoticon? And you hooked it?, line and sinker. 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13252
01/09/2001 9:31 AM
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Then I can say Mt Cook by itself!
[triumphant Daffy Duck finger raised in air emoticon]
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#13253
01/09/2001 12:51 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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>The Brits are the major visitors to Ibiza and provide the lifeblood (monetarily) of the community. Are they arrogant, or just doing the right thing, when they pronounce the name Eye-beetha?
We must have a thing about Spanish Islands. I heard a travel company marketing person being grilled on the radio recently. The company had two offshoots, each taking visitors to a neighbour of Ibiza. In one brochure, the name Majorca was used. In the other, the name Mallorca was used. Both sets of visitors were being offered holidays on the same island - guess which holidays were more expensive?
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#13254
01/09/2001 4:05 PM
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Durban is now eThekwini and Pretoria is Tshwane -- or at least these are the municipalities
Oh my god is that true? It's so hard to keep up with names in SA these days, I must be falling behind.
Actually I'm sure it is just the municipality. Or what is these days rather portentously called "the Greater Metropole of ...) or some such bureaucratise. Since each of these merged several municipalities (with a mix of Eurocentric and Afrocentric names) I suppose they had a pretty tricky naming problem; someone was bound to be offended.
I notice a lot of name changes around the world have been sparked by political events, some shamefully partisan and others more defensible (if I may be allowed to be so judgmental). By and large I must say I've been quite impressed at how successful we've been in adapting to to the new, more PC, names in SA. (Nobody regrets the end of the "Hendrik Verwoerd Dam". Well, almost nobody.)
Now I wish we could get rid of all the street names that honour obscure, minor politicians whose claim to fame, or source of influence, nobody can recall any longer. It's embarrassing to live in such a street and hell to get foreigners to spell them even vaguely correctly. I think there should be a rule about naming anything after anyone who hasn't been dead for 10 years. [emoticon for people who can't think up clever emoticons]
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#13255
01/09/2001 5:14 PM
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NicholasW exultantly declared Then I can say Mt Cook by itself!
[triumphant Daffy Duck finger raised in air emoticon]Nope, sorry, there ain't so such place no more. If you do find a postage stamp with that particluarly fragile lump of rock on it, said rock will be given its official legal designation - Aoraki/Mt. Cook. The renaming was a major part of a compensation deal reached between the Crown and Ngai Tahu, the Maori iwi whose traditional lands include over 80% of the South Island and whose chairman has the wonderfully traditional Maori surname of O'Regan. As much fun as this little stirring excercise has been, Nicholas, I have to confess that I feel as you do on this matter. I'm a Yangon, Myanmar sort of guy myself. I love the challenge of trying to get it right, even though, as an amateur, I almost certainly mutilate them in a way that adepts such as yourself would cringe at. At least I drive through Paraparaumu on my to Wellington, not Paraparam. That's gotta be worth summat, eh, CapK?
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#13256
01/09/2001 5:39 PM
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MaxQ supplies: its official legal designation - Aoraki/Mt. Cook
Do you pronounce the /? Is it slash, virgule or what?
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