#13177
12/17/2000 11:45 PM
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I've always wondered why EVERY country sees fit to reinterpret the names of every other country's cities (eg Firenze = Florence).
Is this a form of cultural arrogance or simply convenience?
(I laboured under the misassumption that I lived in AustraliA until I travelled through Europe - only then did I find out that the place was actually called AustraliE!!)
stales
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#13178
12/18/2000 1:52 AM
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Here I go ... this response is based on general ignorance and guesswork.
Two things seem to occur.
One is that there is an historical mispronunciation or difficulty with pronunciation of the name which then translates into an ongoing misspelling of the name. Hence, in English Firenze = Florence, Roma = Rome, Munchen = Munich, Lunnon = London. Yet Berlin = Berlin, Milan = Milan, Pisa = Pisa, and so on.
The other one is that some languages don't happily accept names which don't fit their linguistic approach to life. Examples of this are Australie = Australia in German, Nyujirando = New Zealand in Japanese (although I won't swear to the spelling of the Japanese word).
I've noticed that when a place from parts foreign which doesn't usually crop up makes it on to the news these days (e.g. Grozny and Chechnya), there is no "anglicisation". Instead we have a newsreader valiantly trying to remember how the hell that name was pronounced and either making a bold, valiant attempt at it, or mumbling into his/her beard in the hope that it won't be noticed.
We appear to have learned our lesson here, while stubbornly refusing to correct past errors at the expense of reissuing millions of maps, books and other assorted communications devices.
My $0.02 worth ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13179
12/18/2000 2:12 AM
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I think people are catching on that it is just not polite to be misspelling the names of other countries.
On my recent Rand McNally atlas, a special effort has been made to print up the maps with the names of the countries as they are actually called. They have anglicized (or spelled phonetically) some names, as some countries do not have the same alphabet.
I can see how it can be disturbing. I am always in awe when I see Canada spelled with a K. Yet I am guilty of having called Australia Australie, when speaking in French because this was the name I was taught.
I always, and I mean always, make sure I spell a customer's name correctly. If I am not sure, I will even call someone in his/her office to confirm. I think it is elementary politeness. Hmmm, I wonder how it would go over if I spelled the names of countries correctly. In the immortal words of Drew Barrimore in Ever After "I shall try."
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#13180
12/18/2000 2:32 AM
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Strikes me that it is not always the fault of the culturally arrogrant. For example, I grew up calling the city in China "Peking" and then was suddenly informed that it was "Beijing." So who changed the rules?
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#13181
12/18/2000 6:14 AM
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Father Steve has it right - arrogance is the wrong word. It is simply usage. If my (leaky) memory serves me right, Peking is from the ?Cantonese dialect while Beijing is ?Mandarin. Or it maybe the difference between pinyin and other transliteration systems. Whatever. Someone did tell me and I, with my usual knack, managed to lose the details somewhere.
Anyway, I have learned something from this thread. Drew Barrymore has said something that someone considered immortal. Ay di me!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13182
12/18/2000 7:04 AM
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Drew Barrymore's greatest assets are not verbal, neither of them.
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#13183
12/18/2000 7:46 AM
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C Kiwi - I think you may've just offended the Milanese - aren't they of the opinion they live in Milano, not Milan?
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#13184
12/18/2000 8:32 AM
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stales reprimanded: C Kiwi - I think you may've just offended the Milanese - aren't they of the opinion they live in Milano, not Milan?
... as Emanuela has pointed out politely in a private message. Sorry Milano. Keep them Ferraris rolling out ... and shy one my way, please!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13185
12/18/2000 8:37 AM
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Our resident religious noted: Drew Barrymore's greatest assets are not verbal, neither of them.
And they're not that great anyway. Not that I've noticed or anything. I mean, I used to, but I can't for the life of me remember why.
Pssst, Padre, we better watch it. The gutter police from Old Kaintuck will be after us ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13186
12/18/2000 10:42 AM
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It's generally considered pretentious and rude to interlard your conversation with French words or your writing with Latin quotations. I think it's equally pretentious and rude ("I'm smarter than you; I've travelled more") to use foreign names instead of English names when speaking English.
You don't go on holiday to Deutschland and Elas and Italia, because that's not what they're called in English. We learn place names the same as we learn common names: in our cradle and from those around us. They are part of English like any other words.
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#13187
12/18/2000 10:55 AM
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Historically, no-one ever decided to change Roma into Rome. Both the English and the Italian names derive from a common ancestor, Roma; just as the modern names Florence and Firenze do; or Paris and Paris: in modern French the final S has become silent, so their pronunciation is now more divergent from the common ancestor than ours. Typically, the names in different languages are the normal historical reflexes of the same original name. No one is any more correct than any other.
Don't confuse pronunciation with spelling. You might write Szczecin or Madrid but would probably pronounce it very differently from the local way. The newsreader "not anglicizing" is probably introducing just as great a distortion as if the odd letter had been changed.
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#13188
12/18/2000 10:58 AM
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Beijing is the Pinyin transcription and Peking is Wade-Giles; they represent the same name and pronunciation, and are both of the Standard (Beijing) dialect.
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#13189
12/18/2000 11:38 AM
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NicholasW said We learn place names the same as we learn common names: in our cradle and from those around us. They are part of English like any other words.
I don't think that anyone is arguing against your premise. The question was "Why are they different?", not "Why don't we use the local names?".
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13190
12/18/2000 12:12 PM
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Because all languages change all the time. Each undergoes the phonetic changes that all the rest of the language undergoes. And millions and millions of people in every generation learn about Paris and Germany and Athens -- very very few of them ever get to the sophistication of learning that the foreigners at home there call them "Paghee" and Deutschland and Athine. There just isn't the impetus to adopt foreign names for things we already have familiar and simple and long-established English names for.
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#13191
12/18/2000 12:35 PM
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Drew Barrymore's greatest assets are not verbal, neither of them.
She does have nice eyes, doesn't she? [warning-glower
icon]
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#13192
12/18/2000 12:42 PM
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nice eyesAs in, "Aye, aye, what a pair!", Jackie? 
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#13193
12/18/2000 12:54 PM
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As in, "Aye, aye, what a pair!", Jackie?
Ignored my warning glower, did ye, S'Ayleur?
Wal, walk the gangplank into the gutter then, mate.
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#13194
12/18/2000 1:15 PM
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my warning glowerWarning Becomes Eclectic ?
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#13195
12/18/2000 1:29 PM
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Warning Becomes Eclectic ?
Er--sorry, I think there's something here I'm not getting.
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#13196
12/18/2000 1:52 PM
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i know, i know--I misspent my youth being sober and industrious-- and going to somber greek plays--
Mourning Become Electra-- which actually is quite wonderful, when you actually learn the history of the time, and what was going on,,,,, otherwise they all seem like very old, very slow versions of a Staleone movie-- everyone is killing everone, or plotting their death-- no bomb or car chases, but the same level of violence--
(and yes, i am reformed-- I party much more now than i ever did in my 20's! )
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#13197
12/18/2000 3:33 PM
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> very slow versions of a Staleone movie-
I almost choked on my coffee. This CERTAINLY fits my conception of a Stallone movie!!!
TEd
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#13198
12/18/2000 6:01 PM
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Funny, I always thought Greek plays were wordy events. Stallone economises on scriptwriters by not having any dialogue. You are obviously referring to the violence ...
CK (paid-up member of the eternal Greek chorus)
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13199
12/18/2000 8:52 PM
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>It's generally considered pretentious and rude to interlard your conversation with French words or your writing with Latin quotations. I think it's equally pretentious and rude ("I'm smarter than you; I've travelled more") to use foreign names instead of English names when speaking English.
Perhaps it is just the people you hang around with. In Montréal, Québec, it is quite common to intersperse French words into the conversation as both English and French are official languages and both are commonly used. As such I do take exception at your saying it is pretentious and rude.
Also, you should note that board is dedicated to words. It is not called An English Word A Day. You will find loads of Latin, Italian, English, French, Hindi, and every other imaginable language being bandied about. What makes this board great is the mix of people from all over the globe. If you find it rude, you will be insulted no end by the people here. I like everybody here and I enjoy them adding a bit of themselves into the posts. I have NOT found anyone pretentious OR rude and I find it very insulting that you would say such a thing!
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#13200
12/19/2000 3:00 AM
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In response to bel's comments -
I think that to be on this board and enjoy it, you have to have the mental capability to embrace the differences which both separate and join us. Some will have travelled a good deal and others won't have had that opportunity. But every one of us travels in our minds, I believe. Even if we disagree about the meaning and value of the destination sometimes.
However, bel, I do believe that NicholasW was talking in generalities rather than accusing us of arrogance.
I hope!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13201
12/19/2000 9:33 AM
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Apologies to belMarduk for the unintentional offence.
Of course in Quebec or any bilingual area both languages will be used. But that is exceptional as far as most English-speakers go. And of course a board dedicated to language is also an exception, where it is understood the others are likely to have a wide knowledge of language.
But for most English speakers, use of any foreign language is excluding. Most of them don't have the education that bilinguality affords, and no longer get the classical education that allows them to pick up Latin tags. I stick by my contention that, in most contexts, significant use of any foreign language is not at all the done thing. (Of course I, skilled in language, find this frustrating, not being able to use my knowledge.)
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#13202
12/19/2000 11:03 AM
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addict
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significant use of any foreign language is not at all the done thing
NickW, I'm not sure you and Bel are as far apart as you (plural!) think you are. I think 'significant use of a foreign language' is reasonably far removed from pronouncing the capital city of a country as its inhabitants pronounce it. I also find it hard to classify French as a foreign language in Quebec. (Sorry, Bel, I am still too lazy to find the accents and spell Montreal / Quebec correctly, although I would pronounce them the French way...)
There are people who only know the 'English' pronunciation and spelling. There are others who only know the 'native'. And there's a whole chunk of us in the middle who know both and (I'd like to think!) use whichever people will understand.
By the bye, we English speakers can't even agree on how to pronounce or spell our own language. It's hardly surprising we have variations with foreign place names. We're not even that good with 'English' place names, which gives rise to a whole new quiz...
All you non-Brits out there, how many of you can give the correct pronunciation of Hawick? Appletreewick?
Non-Americans (these should be easier, due to a bias in my knowledge!), how about Des Moines? Poughkeepsie? Piscataway?
Non-Australians, Taree? Goulburn?
(As an aside for Antipodeans, I've heard people ask the way to 'Bondy Beach'. Obviously where Alan hangs out now he's been let out...)
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#13203
12/19/2000 12:03 PM
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I should say I am great stickler for accuracy in names. We should always use the correct names of places: Mumbai not *Bombay, Co^te d'Ivoire not *Ivory Coast, Solomon Islands nor *the Solomon Islands, and so on.
In the case where there exists a distinct English name, that is the correct name when speaking English, e.g. Geneva, which is not the French or Italian or German name. (Hmm... what is the Italian? Ginevra? Or am I mixed up?) There's a correct name for it in French when speaking in French, ditto in German. Each of the national names is a long-standing and authentic word in the respective language. No one is a "corruption" of any other, or a "bad" or "ignorant" or "sloppy" form.
This is not a plea for "traditional" names. Names can be changed. Co^te d'Ivoire used to be Elfenbeinku"ste, Ivory Coast, Costa de Marfil etc. in various languages, then they changed the name in English from Ivory Coast to Co^te d'Ivoire, in Spanish from Costa de Marfil to Co^te d'Ivoire, and so on. (They were sick of not knowing where to sit at international conferences.)
The English name of Mumbai used to be Bombay, but now it's changed. Bombay is now as much an anachronism as Batavia.
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#13204
01/01/2001 11:26 AM
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The English name of Mumbai used to be Bombay, but now it's changed. Bombay is now as much an anachronism as Batavia.The entire issue of the name "Bombay" versus "Mumbai" is not even close to as cut and dried as you might imagine. For some of my take on this, check http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=6845&page=10&view=collapsed&sb=5&vc=1#Post6845. The question to ask is this: in today's cosmopolitan world where people are not necessarily any longer known by their locality (I have moved city two or three times in my life), who actually 'owns' the name of a place? [mild rant] The Brits are the major visitors to Ibiza and provide the lifeblood (monetarily) of the community. Are they arrogant, or just doing the right thing, when they pronounce the name Eye-beetha? I grew up in Bombay and lived there for 22 years. Why does a fascistic, non-secular, right wing political organisation (the Shiv Sena, for those not familiar with Bombay politics) have the right to tell me that the name I use for 'my' city is wrong? Whose city is it anyway? Nowhere in India except in Bombay was the name 'Mumbai' common. So do the rest of the Indians (a mere 985,000,000 of them) have no say in the name of their richest and most populous city? For what it's worth, my parents still live in Bombay and I know that less than half the population wanted the name changed - it was pushed through by the Shiv Sena on the back of their having a minority government, and thugs who threw stones at establishments that didn't change their shop signs and headed paper. I admit that there is apparently an 'arrogance' implicit in the fact that we say Florence instead of Firenze or Venice instead of Venezia, but this is not always avoidable. CapK, I think, below spoke of the fact that our names will rarely fit Japanese pronunciation conventions - since they tend not to have compound consonants. It would surely be an act of supreme arrogance on our part to presume to tell the Japanese to change their language to accomodate our names. Are we really, in the name of political correctness, expected to say Frawns, or La Frawns or La Frawnsay (apologies for inadequate orthography) for France? Names are conventional, IMO. When a convention has been established it is counter-productive to attempt to overthrow it - if the intention is clear, let it stay. We show sensitivity these days towards the names of places that are new to us, or have been recently created. I am not sure there is a good reason to backtrack through the English language, 'correcting' the spelling and pronunciation of long-standing English conventions. [/mild rant] cheer the sunshine warrior
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#13205
01/01/2001 1:31 PM
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We show sensitivity these days towards the names of places that are new to us, or have been recently created. I am not sure there is a good reason to backtrack through the English language, 'correcting' the spelling and pronunciation of long-standing English conventions.
In 'sensitivity' to you, sweet shanks, I am refraining from using that 4-letter word that starts with A. Instead:
applause, applause! This is exactly the way I feel about
the Methodists going back through so many long-ago
written hymns and replacing 'man' or 'men' with 'people', or some such. It offends my sensibilities.
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#13206
01/02/2001 11:17 AM
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The Brits are the major visitors to Ibiza and provide the lifeblood (monetarily) of the community. Are they arrogant, or just doing the right thing, when they pronounce the name Eye-beetha?
Ignorant, in this case. Ibiza has no distinct English name so it should be [i"vi:T@] (i.e. ee-VEE-tha), the closest English sounds to the Spanish. (Actually it shouldn't, it should be Eivissa, the Catalan name, the official name in Spain.)
I grew up in Bombay and lived there for 22 years. Why does a fascistic, non-secular, right wing political organisation (the Shiv Sena, for those not familiar with Bombay politics) have the right to tell me that the name I use for 'my' city is wrong? Whose city is it anyway? Nowhere in India except in Bombay was the name 'Mumbai' common. So do the rest of the Indians (a mere 985,000,000 of them) have no say in the name of their richest and most populous city?
Good point, in this case, though I'll continue to use Shiv Sena's imposition. I also say and use Myanmar, which is the de facto official name, but understand how controversial it is. When Aung San Suu Kyi takes over she can change it back to Burma if she likes and I'll then say that again.
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#13207
01/02/2001 11:24 AM
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BTW I'm very impressed that on my plucking Mumbai out of thin air there is already a discussion of it from several months back. Your first posting to it was very informative too: just the sort of thing I like to know.
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#13208
01/02/2001 7:30 PM
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Name Changes
Quite possible Myanmar may revert to Burma, and Yangon to Rangoon. We have precedent in Leningrad going back to St. Petersburg, Titograd going back to Podgorica, and no doubt plenty of others. One of the rules of place names is that the powers-that-be-at-the-moment can and may determine what names are to be official.
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#13209
01/03/2001 2:07 AM
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Jackie states: This is exactly the way I feel about the Methodists going back through so many long-ago written hymns and replacing 'man' or 'men' with 'people', or some such. It offends my sensibilities.
Man is an old English word meaning human being. Person is an old Etruscan word meaning mask. People is also an old Etruscan word but the AHD doesn't say what it meant.
In the Ithaca Community Chorus one year we sang a bunch of Christmas carols, carefully removing all the "sexist" references (we couldn't figure out what to do with the "merry gentlemen" so we left that one out) and then gayly went on to sing a song about a little woperson who sat in the window drinking her rose petal tea while patiently waiting for her MAN to come home from the sea.
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#13210
01/03/2001 5:27 PM
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Use of 'English' place names all falls apart when you come to actually visit the places. As a railway enthusiast travelling around Europe I quickly learned that I wasn't going to get very far looking for trains to Cologne!
But what to do in Belgium? Try getting a train to Antwerp from a Walloon area! Or what about a train to Lille in France from somewhere where the signs are in Flemish.
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#13211
01/03/2001 8:28 PM
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> I admit that there is apparently an 'arrogance' implicit in the fact that we say Florence instead of Firenze or Venice instead of Venezia
I have always considered an honor for a city having its name translated. Only countries and very important cities deserve this privilege. We, Spaniards, say Londres, Nueva York or Moscú but have no Spanish words for smaller cities on those countries.
Lots of cities in Spain are lately changing their official names to Catalonian, Basque or Galician names and we are living the, absurd IMO, debate about if everybody else should employ, as some nationalists insist, the new names instead of the older ones.
I have never used Beijing instead or Peking and I will continue using Bombay, I consider that a language shouldnt be changed by political decisions.
Juan Maria.
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#13212
01/03/2001 9:59 PM
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Would you call it cultural arrogance or just cultural stupidity if a town uses a foreign city name but mispronounces it? There's a suburb of Cincinnati named Versailles and the "es" is pronounced at the end, far from the real French pronounciation. Toledo is also mispronounced from is Spanish namesake. In the US it's "Tol-ee-do", but in Spain, as far as I've heard, it's "Tol-eh-do".
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#13213
01/03/2001 10:28 PM
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JazzOctopus asked There's a suburb of Cincinnati named Versailles and the "es" is pronounced at the end, far from the real French pronounciation. Toledo is also mispronounced from is Spanish namesake. In the US it's "Tol-ee-do", but in Spain, as far as I've heard, it's "Tol-eh-do".If I may offer my sen on the matter, I think that the two examples you give are situaations in which it is entirely appropriate to pronounce the names differently. Versailles, Cincinnati is not Versailees, France, and Toledo, Ohio is not Toledo, Spain, so pronouncing the names ina different manner serves to make that distinction clear. Here in New Zealand there is a topographical feature known as the Bombay Hills, north of which there is no civilised society. Despite the large, and rapidly growing, Indian population on both sides of those hills, no one has suggested renaming them "The Mumbai Hills" 
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#13214
01/03/2001 10:35 PM
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And in NY, you can go to Houston (House ton ) street-- but in texas, the is a city called Houston (hew ston)-- i would say the word differently depending on where it was--
but if Houston texas, desided to label a souther quadrant of the city, where all the arty folk have set up shop, Soho, ,just like in NY-- I would call it Soho (just like the London area that NY stole the name from...)
in NY, SOHO, is south of Houston...
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#13215
01/04/2001 1:47 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Max blandly stated: Here in New Zealand there is a topographical feature known as the Bombay Hills, north of which there is no civilised society. Despite the large, and rapidly growing, Indian population on both sides of those hills, no one has suggested renaming them "The Mumbai Hills" 1. For those of you not in on the joke, the city of Auckland is immediately north of the Bombay Hills and contains approximately one-third of the population; about 1.3 million people. Aside from that, I agree with Max. 2. At the moment, most Aucklanders are only vaguely aware that the Bombay Hills exist. Their maps all have "Here there be dragons" lettered in old English script five miles south of Drury, the southern-most suburb. Renaming the Bombay Hills to the Mumbai Hills might have the adverse effect of reminding them that there is life south of those same hills .... [cynical  ]
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#13216
01/04/2001 9:02 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 393 |
Juanmaria wrote Lots of cities in Spain are lately changing their official names to Catalonian, Basque or Galician names Ooh, but they make me so excited, and as soon as I find them I begin (quivering and) memorizing A Coruņa, Lleida, Eivissa, and so on: and as a lover of Basque I have always used Donostia, Bilbo, Gasteiz, Gipuzkoa and the rest. Even better would be if Canada and the USA started doing this (slurp slaver drool): then we'd all have to memorize Ktaqamk (Newfoundland), Epekwitk (Prince Edward I.), and Dzidzalal'ich (Seattle). I don't think I could handle so much fun all at once. 
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