|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
I'm skeptical, but not closed-minded.
I understand. I, too, am skeptical and not credulous. The problem so far with Koko is that her handler is the onliest person who seems to be able to understand her. Her utterances are usually two or three symbols, and just don't display much of anything in the way of syntax. Her handler usually seems to provide a lot of the glue and interpretation necessary. I read an account of some ASL-signing consultants who were brought in, anxious to talk with Koko. They became more and more skeptical and finally disassociated themselves with the project.
Also, you'd think others would be preplicating the experiment with other gorillas and different handlers. But so far no go.
As for Rico, nobody denies that dogs can be trained to respond to all kinds of stimuluses. I know from experience with pets of my own that dogs can respond to hand gestures, tone of voice, stern looks, attitude, and simple one or two word commands. I'm just not compfortable calling what Koko and Rico and their handlers are doing language. It just doesn't help me much to understand human language, but others may find it inspriational or what not. I'm willing to say that it exhibits some language-like properties, but then so do bee dances, etc. Happy trails to them.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526 |
"The problem so far with Koko is that her handler is the onliest person who seems to be able to understand her."
Not sure of what to make of that. I know that some animals can get very attached to certain individuals. In AK, our husky got attached to me. Poodle got attached to mom. My Lab got attached to me, my dad's to him.
Just picked up a Jack Russel from the animal shelter for the girls this past Saturday. It's the girls' dog, but so far she only comes when I call her. Probably she thinks this is a pack and I'm the leader of the pack. For whatever reason, though, she "performs" for me and not others. It's only been a few days and I'm sure things will evolve, but the trend is already set.
"Her utterances are usually two or three symbols, and just don't display much of anything in the way of syntax."
This, I think, is important. Positive reinforcement is a good thing, but it can be misleading. If the animal is getting continual praise for jabbering, then it will jabber. (OTOH, one would think a psychological researcher would be aware of this.)
"koko want banana"
"good girl koko, have a treat!"
"koko want banana"
"good girl koko, have a treat!"
"koko poopoo"
"good girl koko, have a treat!"
"koko poopoo banana"
"good girl koko, have a treat!"
You get the idea.
"... ASL-signing consultants who were brought in ... became more and more skeptical and finally disassociated themselves ... "
That's interesting - and reminiscent of other miraculous or amazing claims made in other venues. When a disinterested observer reads initial accounts from newspapers and so forth, the event sounds utterly amazing and convincing, but once a little research is done, the miracle tends to evaporate.
k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
Probably she thinks this is a pack and I'm the leader of the pack.
That reminds me TFF, there's a book from the late '40s by Konrad Lorenz on canine behavior that's a fun and informative read. Can't remember the title, but it could be Man Meets Dog.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Well--I am sorry, now, that I haven't been able to get to this category for so long; I thought I might have time to catch up on all 155 new posts this morning, but this thread was first up, and I'm going to have to stop here and just hope I can remember how many others to get to next time.
I have read this thread twice, and am still unable to pinpoint the exact spot where it started to get ugly; but I am nonetheless filled with dismay. Disagreeing/asking for clarification is one thing. Disagreeing/asking for clarification while making snide remarks or personal attacks is quite another, and extremely unwelcome, to say nothing of disruptive.
Questioning someone or their thoughts while attacking them at the same time is a near-guarantee that they will not respond to the question but to the attack. If this has been done on purpose, then I say: attackees, be warned! Realize that you may be being deliberately lured away from presenting your thoughts on the subject, and feel free to ignore the attack, or at least not to give it star billing.
For what it's worth: saying something like, " N (author) bores me", or " N (author)'s ideas are ridiculous" is NOT necessarily the same as saying, "You're stupid if you like N".
This thread opened with a perfectly valid and wonderful question, one that virtually demands different viewpoints and lovely, lively discussion! Can we go back to the loveliness, PLEASE? If anyone has a "beef" with a particular person, would you please let them know via a PM, and not drag the entire readership into your vendetta? Despite some personal past unhappiness, I still care about this place.
*********************************************************
I hadn't even thought of ASL, re: what constitutes a word. I wish Brandon would respond to that. As to how the nuance behind the word audacious is gotten across, I wonder if the signer's facial expressions add to it?
As to which came first, ideas or words, I would have to say ideas. Think back to the earliest humans: it makes sense to me that they would have had to first be aware of what their needs were ("food", "danger!") and then found ways to communicate these to others--possibly hand signals or drawings, first, but there surely would have been times when these were impossible, so spoken words developed.
I was interested to read, in the context of this thread, the phrase "make the law spring off the page": I took it that the writer was meaning that the concept, or understanding, became clear in the minds of the students, not that the words of the law literally rose from the page into the air! Amazing things, words...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788 |
Konrad Lorenz' Man Meets Dog was first published in German in 1949, first published in English in 1953, and reissued in 1980, as interest in Lorenz' work grew. The edition reprinted in 1994 can still be found in some bibliopoles.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,526 |
"Man Meets Dog"
will check it out.
k
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
Is a Salchow any less distinctive and enthralling than the stylings of Frank Sinatra...(?)Less distinctive however often more enthralling.  
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788 |
Unlike some of the very scholarly things written by Lorenz, this one (Man/Dog) was written for the general reader ... which is better, in many respects.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
better, in many respects - It was one of the few books I read several times in my youth. It was one of the reasons why I also worked my way through his later writings, and observed the fluctuations of his popularity..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788 |
My introduction to Lorenz happened when my mother bought me a used copy of King Solomon's Ring, which was another book the professor wrote for general audiences. I read it when I was about ten years of age and found it to be excellent, as I have found it on the several occasions when I have reread it (or read it to a nephew or niece) as an adult.
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,614
Members9,187
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
112
guests, and
1
robot. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
