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Does anybody know why the button holes and the zippers on men's shirts and pants are on the opposite side of women's shirts and pants?
I can't imagine that it is so you could tell them apart as that is usually quite obvious by what they look like and where you buy them.
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I believe it was because women usually had someone dressing them, so the buttons were on the other side.
formerly known as etaoin...
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Calling oftroy, calling oftroy...
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old hand
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old hand
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eta's explanation is the one I always heard.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Can you 'splain to me what you meant by zippers being on the opposite side?
TEd
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zippers being on the opposite side?
like on jackets? the flange and the doo-hickey are reversed?
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ROFL! You certainly have a way with words!!!
I spent a few minutes looking at some jackets here and did find that on several of the women's jackets the slider was on the left side. Out of curiosity I tested the usage and found them awkward. All of the men's and boys' jackets had the slider on the right.
I guess you can tell from this that I am not a cross-dresser!
TEd
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a way with words
see, I finally figured out that using the technical terms leaves a certain segment [approaches 100%] of a standard audience bumfuzzled; using slangy substitutes works to much better effect.
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old hand
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old hand
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Bel
The traditional (though not necessarily true) explanation for men's clothes is that they had to be consistent all the way through - imagine buttoning a shirt and a coat in different directions! - and so, for all the right-handed men with swords on the left, they needed coats with left buttoning over right.
This makes sense as far as it goes, and I'm prepared to accept it may well be the truth. The explanations offered for the women, however, all seem a bit specious to me.
1. As offered here - that women tended to be dressed by others... hmmm...
2. The women tended to suckle on the right breast and so found right-over-left buttons more convenient...
What I have noticed is that in India (South India), where women and men both wear long strips of cloth wrapped around the waist (and a separate cloth to cover the upper torso whenever those blamed English missionaries are around talking about the sin of exposing oneself!!), men and women tie them in different directions.
This seems to me to suggest that the difference may have more to do with the symbolism of left-right and man-woman than any practical issue concerning the way clothes function.
But what do I know...
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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>The women tended to suckle on the right breast
Well I usually head for . . . er, never mind
TEd
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I am shocked, SHOCKED I tell you, that you might be implying that this forum is a standard audience!
TEd
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I am shocked...hey, you were the one who had to have zippers being on the opposite side 'splained to you! 
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re:zippers being on the opposite side?
like on jackets? the flange and the doo-hickey are reversed?
placket is the most common term for the opening for a zipper --Jeans and men's trousers/pants all have plackets, some times jackets have 'exposed zippers' (ie, no placket) and yes both plackets and buttonholes are reversed for woman/mens clothing.
inside the placket, on better mens and womens clothes, there is somtimes a placket lining. (Jeans definately don't have these!)
zippers are relatively new technology for closing clothes, and designers were hired by manufacterors to design the best way to install zippers.
as zippers have changed and improved, plackets have become smaller (in general) and newer zippers are invisible--they are designed to hide in the seam when closed.
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i too have alwasy heard womans clothing was reversed because women had 'dressers'--which might well be true, since pre industrial age, buttons were expensive and generally only decorated expensive clothing. most woman wore clothing that closed with laces. (see the discussion about aglets.. )
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buttons were so expensive that several religious groups frowned on there use, today only the Amish still generally avoid them.
the purtians, as part of their philosophy of simple plain living, (somber colors, little or no frivious activites allowed, etc) also frowned on buttons.. they used belts and buckles to fasten clothing. (and are still characterized by even wearing hats with buckles as trim)
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i don't know much about 'pearly kings and queens' but i suspect they were poor people who collected (and stole!) pearl buttons and used them to decorate clothing --until they went overboard, and had buttons every where!--but since buttons were displays of wealth--they elevated the status of the pearly kings/queens.
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military uniforms always had buttons, (very large ones often) usually made from brass (again this was a display of wealth)
Napolian was the first to insist that buttons and braid also be used on cuffs of uniforms..(to discourage the men from wiping their noses on their sleeves..)
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Women tended to be dressed by others
Women tended to suckle on the right breast and so found right-over-left buttons more convenient
Hmmm. I'm a little iffy on those women's closures explanations. Really, only the upper crust of society would have dressers. Mr. and Mrs. live-in-a-hovel couldn't afford that and would dress themselves. And there were a hell-of-a-lot more of them.
As to the breast feeding explanation...that was surely made up by men since when you breast-feed, you try to feed from both breast or you wind up lopsided and sore in the breast that you are not emptying (the milk keeps building up since you lactate on both sides).
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only the upper crust of society would have dressers
I think that ties in to buttons being expensive. when buttons were eventually manufactured cheaply, the pattern of opposite side buttoning would have already been established.
formerly known as etaoin...
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Hmmm. Let me go take a peep at my fashion through the ages book and I'll let you know what I find.
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I checked it out.
There seems to have been a switch of sides some time in the mid 19th, century.
All through the 18th century, the majority of dresses seem to tie with laces. Those dresses with button holes, go left over right; just like men's shirts and coats. I saw one dress that was right over left but it was double-brested - with two sets of overlarge buttons going down the front, looking more like decorations than closure.
From what I can see, the right over left for women started in the mid 19th century whem more women's clothing were made with buttons. Starting then, they all go right over left. There's no explanation for this in the book unfortunately.
I think I'll write the museum and ask. Their address is in the book.
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well call me chopped liver..
right about when factories (mid 19th century) began to produce goods of all kinds (like pins and buttons), buttons became affordable, and started to be used on clothing of all sorts.. (they retains a remant of their historical value, that still lingers.. the jar/can/tin of used buttons, cut of worn out clothing.. that still haunts grandma's house, but the buttons in it are never used.)
imagine.. i only said, buttons used to be expensive, and womens clothing used laces.. (and failed to remind everyone that during the industrial revolution, all sorts of expensive items became inexpensive, and common place.)
as for placement, i offered only the information i have heard, repeatedly, from places diverse (include a costume designer for bbc 'historical' productions)--that women were more likely to have dressers-- and the buttons holes were placed to make it easy for the dressers, (not the wearers).
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sounded like a good name for a dresser...
formerly known as etaoin...
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Pooh-Bah
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Especially an angry one. That'd be a cross dresser.
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That'd be a cross dresser
thanks, big brother...
formerly known as etaoin...
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Then there was the old seamstress who was fired because she could no longer mend straight.
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>Then there was the old seamstress
Darn. I missed that one.
TEd
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I believe it was because women usually had someone dressing them...I thought it was because they had someone undressing them. 
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there was the poor old sod of man, who married a pretty young thing.. she helped make ends meet by taking in borders.. all the borders were handsome young men..
himself nearly lost it one day, and told his wife, no more borders..
she replied, "sure, i was only sewing a button on the young man's fly."
'Ah,'himself replied, 'but he had his pants on, and there was no need for you to be cutting the thead with your teeth!'
it doesn't matter which side the buttons are on if you are undressing a women with your eyes! (not that i would ever accuse you of doing that to me, musick!)
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Carpal Tunnel
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Then there was the story of her little boy, who went to school one morning and burst out crying. The teacher said, "What's wrong, Johnnie?"
"Teacher, I didn't get no breakfast."
The teacher gave him a snack and then said, "OK, let's continue our geography lesson. Johnnie, can you tell me where the Canadian border is?"
"In bed with mom, and that's why I didn't get no breakfast."
TEd
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
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I guess you can tell from this that I am not a cross-dresser!Well, you could be a cross-dresser who is still in the closet. 
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Carpal Tunnel
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...just so this thread will be complete and even thorough: In tsuwm's lexicon extraordinaire, he reminds us of the worthless word for the gap area between buttons and snaps: gaposis I assume the plural is gaposes. Edit: Apparently gaposes are undesireables--gaps that are gaping or a condition of unwanted gappiness. Here's a practical suggestion from one site:
Take Velcro Spots: for that missing button, gaposis, or a hem that is torn, these spots are great. Use them for slipping shoulder pads.
http://caitlondon.com/CareerTips.html
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