|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
In an interesting, recent New Yorker article, Lawrence Wright writes: Those clues, plus certain particularly Moroccan political concerns expressed in the document, such as the independence movement in Western Sahara, suggested that at least some of the authors were diaspora Moroccans, probably living in Spain. I wonder what everyone else here thinks of this use of "diaspora," which I understand to be a noun, either the scattering of a people ( the diaspora of the Jews) or the collective group of people themselves who were scattered ( his grandfather was a member of the Jewish diaspora). Wright's use of the word as an adjective seems awkward to me at best. http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040802fa_fact
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
Alex:
i sat and thought about this one for a bit (after reading the fascinating article!) and concluded that the usage was probably OK. I can construe the phrase to mean Moroccans of the diaspora, though you can also just as legitimately conclude that diaspora was used as an adjective, which wouldn't be quite right.
I also thought about other ways to get the point across and couldn't come up with anything that was so much better that I as an editor would use my ble pencil on it.
Nice to see you again!
TEd
TEd
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,819 |
Thanks. Yeah, I agree it isn't horrible, but I wondered if you couldn't use an adjective suffix to create "diasporic," which doesn't go down too well either. I guess it is akin to other uses of nouns as adjectives, such "car guy" or "Bud man."
It is a fascinating, and somewhat frightening, article.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
Wright's use of the word as an adjective seems awkward to me at best.
Doesn't seem like an adjective to me, just two nouns (in compound) the first modifying the second, like arthritis sufferer, Las Vegas gambler, or soup nazi. It's a pretty common phenomenon. I'd find diasporic or diasporal Moraccans to be less satisfactory than diaspora Moroccans.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
However, jheem, it functions as an adjective here.
Alex, yeah, I had to think about it for a minute, too, but I agree with y'all: it does work better than any stylistic adjectification of the word.
Now I'm off to read the article.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
However, jheem, it functions as an adjective here.
Sorry, AnnaStrophic, but I have to disagree with you here. It's a noun modifying another noun. Consider the following.
1a. the red book
1b. the very red book
1c. the book is red
1d. the book which/that is red
2a, the diaspora Moroccans
2b. *the very diaspora Moroccans
2c. *the Moroccans are disapora
2d. *the Moroccans who are diaspora
Diaspora here does not act as an adjective nor is it an adjective, but it is a noun.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
The function of adjectives is to modify nouns. Nouns that modify nouns, in this particular context, are adjectives. Wanna take this outside? 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
The function of adjectives is to modify nouns. Nouns that modify nouns, in this particular context, are adjectives.So a noun is a noun, unless its function changes and then the noun is an adjective. I think I've got that. But the noun in question, diaspora, does not function like other adjectives. So maybe some adjectives are more adjectivy than others. Wanna take this outside? Sure, I'll meet you outside. If I'm not there in a couple of minutes, you can start without me. 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Touché, mon buddy.
I forget, how do I shadowbox?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
shadowbox
Another great compound. Is shadow a noun or an adjective? Now where did I put my epee?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
The most overused word in NY Times crossword puzzles.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>The most overused word in NY Times crossword puzzles.
next to eee (big shoes), which ain't really a word.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Or either an adverb, one.
OTOH the line between adjectives and nouns is sometimes perty dang fuzzy
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788 |
The Wikipedia actually credits "diasporic" with wordness.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 81
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 81 |
Any noun (well, I haven't checked them all) can qualify another noun: shop window, toilet seat, window seat, street corner, street Arab, cricket bat, ostrich egg, book club, seed drill, chicken surprise, hair oil, etc etc etc.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
have you ever seen a toilet bowl?
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
seen a toilet bowl
No, but I've heard that Bill Veeck had a cricket bat for the old St. Louis Browns back in '51.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
I'm sure TEd could SHEd some jeers of toy for us...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
citation intentionally left blank
Cubby's florets?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788 |
Tsuwm writes: "eee (big shoes), which ain't really a word"
Bless you, old soul, for acknowledging that there are some constructions which are pronouncible and recognizable and which convey meaning but which are, nonetheless, not words. I will sleep better tonight for it.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
No, but I've heard that
very good, grasshopper.
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
Cubby's florets
flowers taking *chances?
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
flowers taking *chances?
Er, nope. Albert Romolo Broccoli versus Virag Lipoti.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I will sleep better tonight for it
Did you have you a good night's sleep? 'Cause this raises my old question that I ask every time some prescrip declares that, e.g., incent isn't a word. We're stretching a little farther on this one, but, what does it take for a set of phonemes to be a word? What is it beyond pronounceability, recognizability, and conveyance of meaning that is required to endow a group of phonemes with the blessings of word status? I've never had anyone even attempt an answer. I'm assuming here, for purposes of discussion, that 'conveyance of meaning' implies that at least some significant subset of the speakers of a given language will, in some specific context, understand the meaning of the word-candidate in that language.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 89
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 89 |
"...what does it take for a set of phonemes to be a word? What is it beyond pronounceability, recognizability, and conveyance of meaning that is required to endow a group of phonemes with the blessings of word status? I've never had anyone even attempt an answer. I'm assuming here, for purposes of discussion, that 'conveyance of meaning' implies that at least some significant subset of the speakers of a given language will, in some specific context, understand the meaning of the word-candidate in that language." asks faldage
At the risk of being called a (hush) Prescriptionist I'll delimit the meaning of all words. As such...
A word is a symbolic representation of information about the encircling environment but only when it is understood by an entity which thinks.
Well faldage, what do you think?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
OK--a word is a symbolic representation of information about the encircling environment but only when it is understood by an entity which thinks.
today (once again!) the NYT crossword has a clue (#45)Shoebox letters.
in that context(or should i call it an encircling environment)--i.e., letter found on shoeboxes-- EEE is a symbolic representation of information and while it might not be understood by everybody, it is easily understood by an entity which thinks.
i have bought shoes in england and italy.. and other places.. not everyone uses EEE (my size my the way, she admits, while crossing her toes over toes, in an effort to make her feet look smaller)--but i quickly come to understand when other codes are used, and to quickly be able to figure out my size.. (N- as in Narrow, vs, M or W or WW is one very common alternate to the A-B-...EEE gauge.)
so i am guessing you agree with faldage.. and eee is a word.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 89
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 89 |
eeek! Yes , of Troy, I grudgingly agree with Faldage. Which is somewhat a wonder because I have often noted than many times it seems that Faldage doesn't agree with Faldage. And sometimes rightly so.  And speaking of " ergodic" of Troy, I thought that your explanation of the term's meaning was by far the most logical. As a matter of fact I will from this day forth use " ergodic" to denote any system that will revert to a predictable state given the addition of larger samples through adequate time. Thank you.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I looked word up in the AHD and it defines word in terms of morpheme which doesn't help too much, because it defines morpheme in terms of word. I would think your definition a little too broad, amemeba, as it would include such things as the symbols on traffic signs. This is not a word: http://members.aol.com/rmoeuradot/200x200/reg/R3-2.gif
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
re:Which is somewhat a wonder because I have often noted than many times it seems that Faldage doesn't agree with Faldage.
YUP, i'll second that-consistanty is the hobgobblin of small minds.. faldage is many things, but never small minded!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Faldage doesn't agree with Faldage.
Besides, I'm a Fool; therefore, I don't necessarily espouse everything I espouse.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 89
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 89 |
Ah but yes, Mister Faldage, a red light is indeed a word and a pretty emphatic one at that. A red light is a symbol just like these words I write are symbols and they don't exist in a vacuum, they only exist as "words" in the context of our culture. For example take Egyptian hieroglyphics, they are not words until the moment of decipher. Until that moment they are mere pictures and markings. This is because the referent constitutes and gives essence to "wordness" and not the medium itself. So whether spoken or written, or inferred from a menacing growl, a transfer of meaning from the symbol to the recipient determines that which is a bona fide word. Now a further example... It is said that "amemeba is flexanimous". Now tear off the word flexanimous from this sentence and put it in your pocket if you are not sure what it means. As the paper with flexanimous written upon it rides about in your pocket you will never know if it is a real word or not until you google it or ask tsuwm. See?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Knowing something is a word and having it be a word are two different things and a representation* of a word is not the same thing as a word and a red light is no more a word than is a slap upside the head.
*But, since it can be used to represent a word it can be taken as something standing in for that word for purposes of discussion. We must, however, never forget that the representation is not the word. The No Left Turn sign I linked to above is a representation of a phrase and one step further removed from that phrase than are the letters that make up the representation at the beginning of this sentence. The hieroglyphs are just such a representation of a word when they are in ideograph mode. We may not know what word one represents but that does not deny the existence of the word.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 72
journeyman
|
|
journeyman
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 72 |
I thought about this New Yorker article this morning when I turned on the radio and heard about the alerts in NY/NJ.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247 |
re "diaspora Morrocans": Wright's use of the word as an adjective seems awkward to me at best.
Whether noun or adjective, or a hybrid of the two, or a useful coinage, "diaspora Morrocans" is an elegant term, simple and concise and self-explanatory.
Rules of grammar are made to be broken by accomplished writers with the talent and boldness to transcend traditional limits, not so much by breaking the rules as by breaking new ground ... just as a figure skater breaks new ground landing the first "quadruple".
Personally, I think discussions about grammatical rules at this literary elevation are about as useful as comparisons of a turboprop with an F16.
That's just my opinion, of course. It's not that I have anything against the rules of grammar per se. It's just that they are irrelevant once a writer of Wright's trim has escaped "the surly bonds of earth".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
huh. here's what bothered me about this usage, which I didn't previously comment on since it seemed outside the scope of the original plaint: Diaspora, as originally coined, referred to the dispersion of the Jews. I don't think that was meant at all in the phrase "diaspora Morrocans" -- although it *could have referred to Jewish Morrocans, from the context one gathers that it rather refers to Morrocans dispersed in Spain (who were prolly not Jewish). I wouldn't have combined the two words for a few more generations. :-}
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247 |
Diaspora, as originally coined, referred to the dispersion of the Jews.
Well, I suppose we could coin the term "diasplura" to describe any ethnic, racial or religious group which is dispersed beyond their homeland as the result of political or other upheaval.
But a coinage which does not improve on "diaspora Morrocans" is simply a conceit.
Words evolve with normal usage and take on extended meanings which everyone understands, particularly when they are modified with adjectives, or nouns, or noun-adjectives which modify the original meaning.
A coined word is fair game for a new coinage, in my respectful opinion, tsuwm.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
and my point (which I didn't want to overly emphasize for fear of politicizing things) was that the construction may have been... strained in an article such as this.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247 |
my point ... was that the construction may have been ... strained in an article such as this.
As I am not so self-assured as Lawrence Wright, I have consulted the American Heritage Dictionary which includes these definitions of "diaspora":
diaspora
A dispersion of a people from their original homeland. The community formed by such a people:
“the glutinous dish known throughout the [West African] diaspora as... fufu” (Jonell Nash).
diaspora. A dispersion of an originally homogeneous entity, such as a language or culture: “the diaspora of English into several mutually incomprehensible languages” (Randolph Quirk).
Some will take it as instructive, myself included, that the editors of the American Heritage Dictionary cited as a leading example of this usage, a usage which precisely mirrors Lawrence Wright's usage, to wit: "West African diaspora" - "Morrocan diaspora".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
Diaspora, as originally coined, referred to the dispersion of the Jews.Yes, but it's a short hop, skip, and a jump from the original Jewish Diaspora to A-H's "dispersion of an originally homogeneous entity, such as a language or culture". http://www.bartleby.com/61/1/D0200100.htmlThe word, diaspora after all conceivably existed in Greek before the Jews were dispersed outside of Israel in the sixth century BCE. Vulgate: et dispergam eos ventilabro in portis terrae LXX: kai diaspero autous en diaspora en pulais laou mou eteknothesan. KJ: And I will fan them with a fan in the gates of the land. Jer. xv:7.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 247 |
And I will fan them with a fan in the gates of the land.Are you sure this is "Jer. xv.7", jheem? It sounds like Nostradamus catching a fleeting glimpse of the throngs waving banners at the Fleet Center in Boston [at the gates of America]. Or would that be the Republican Convention in New York which he foresees?
|
|
|
|
|
