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#126675 04/02/04 12:46 PM
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veteran
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Intent determines altruism in humans. If the sole purpose that a person did a particular thing was so he could say "See, I did *this*," then the thing is not altruistic. If the person did it for selfless reasons and then bragged about it as an afterthought, the deed is no less altruistic, imo.

I - and perhaps others - write as if altruism and selfishness were binary choices. But there are gradations between these extremes and a single bit is insufficient to convey the myriad possibilities.

I qualify the above with the phrase "in humans," because it's not clear to me that bees, for example, have intent, though their behavior is commonly recognized as altruistic.

k



#126676 04/02/04 04:01 PM
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could you please define horsepucky for me?. You can be frank about it, I am no sociobiologist, and I also have some sneaky suspicions about them. I gather the "selfish gene" is already outdated.

Sure, Werner. It's a polite way of saying bullshit!

I was being controversial. My dislike of sociobiology stems from an abhorrence of "science" that in many cases proves its theories by begging the question and other forms of dodgy logic. My dislike of sociobiology is also known to many on the board!

I've always felt that the major attraction of sociobiology to otherwise quite smart people like Dawkins is because adopting allows you to avoid rigour ...


#126677 04/02/04 08:34 PM
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>>>My dislike of sociobiology is also known to many on the board!

Really Cap? How could we possibly know that, what with you being all timid-like, and introverted, and reticent to voice yer opinion an all.



#126678 04/02/04 10:40 PM
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Jackie Offline OP
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Yes, he always has been a shrinking violet...


#126679 04/04/04 02:02 PM
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"Regard for others as a principle of action; unselfishness" is the way OED defines it.
Wonder how long they discussed before coming up with that definition?


#126680 04/04/04 07:43 PM
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the "selfish gene" is already outdated

The "selfish gene" isn't outdated, wsieber. It's just got a new spin doctor.



#126681 04/04/04 07:54 PM
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Trumpeting a good deed ... That's clearly opportunism

Right on, maahey.

If I want to do good
And I try to do good
That's "altruism".

If I happen to do good
And I make it look good
That's "opportunism".


#126682 04/04/04 08:07 PM
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When a mother bird feeds the cookoo's young, is that
altruism? I think it could be argued both ways.


#126683 04/04/04 09:33 PM
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I don't think so Bill, from the several articles I've read about it, the mother bird thinks that the cuckoo is actually one of her babies hatching from one of her own eggs. So she's not doing this out of niceness to the mother cuckoo.

I'm thinking that when the mother bird plays decoy to distract a predetor from her nest - that sounds more like altruism.


#126684 04/04/04 10:41 PM
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Actually, I've read a theory that it's the most selfish act of 'em all ~ the mother bird is attempting to distract the predator from her young so that her own genetic legacy will survive. The book to which I refer put it in a larger context, of course...

Dark Nature: A Natural History of Evil by Lyall Watson, in case anyone's interested. It was a good read.


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