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A friend and I have been having a thoroughly enjoyable discussion/argument on this topic. So enjoyable and interesting that with his permission I am inviting all of your-all's comments.
What, exactly, is altruism? Is it defined by intentions or results? If a person does a good deed but then trumpets about it, is he altruistic? Or--if someone meant to do good but unintentionally causes a disaster: is that altruism? Is it possible that someone becomes a movie star for altruistic reasons?
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Carpal Tunnel
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I think the classic definition of altruism requires the altruist to completely deny self-interest for the interests of others. Final outcome is totally irrelevant. Self-sacrifice is the ultimate good. I don't think that's the way most people who value the common good over the needs of the self would define it today. I don't think I've answered your question. But, perhaps you-both'll want to make sure you're singing from the same dictionary before you get too far into this argum^H^H^H^H^H umm, discussion.
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addict
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Ok Jackie, I will give it a go... What, exactly, is altruism? Is it defined by intentions or results? I agree with Fald, that the means define altruism; it is the intent that defines it. However, if the end is not achieved, then the effort will not be *recognised as altruistic, will fall by the wayside and might even be derided as do-gooding. And so, the results are important for the recognition of the lofty ideal behind the act.  If a person does a good deed but then trumpets about it, is he altruistic? No...that is clearly opportunism if someone meant to do good but unintentionally causes a disaster: is that altruism?*This might be meddling dogooder-y! Seriously though, it might depend on the scale of the disaster and the planning that went into the effort to help. A knee jerk reaction to help, that results in chaos, would be an interfering annoyance. But a well planned effort devoid of motives, that goes all wrong could still be called, 'a heroic but frutiless effort of altruism'. Is it possible that someone becomes a movie star for altruistic reasonsFramed the way you ask it, I will have to say no. But, he/she could have acted in a movie with a social message that has the potential of bringing about great societal change; he/she might have acted in it gratis, for the sake of the cause and inadvertently ended up becoming a movie star. I guess then, his act of altruism paid rich dividends!!! Inadvertently, of course!
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Dworkin would define altruism as being an unconcious chalking up of favours owed to one to aid one's longer-term survival through eventual repayment. I think he would also say that if one believed one was being truly altruistic, then one is sadly mistaken. We are programmed to act selfishly - "The Selfish Gene" - according to Dworkin and pure altruism, with no hope of any payback is contrasurvival.
Personally, I think that this is horsepucky, like all sociobiology, but there you are!
Damn. remembering post-grad pysch classes at 1.17 a.m.! What next?
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Carpal Tunnel
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you-both'll A take-off on you-all? As to the dictionary-singing, that was the whole point: the yes-buts. [back to the fray with a grin e] If a person does a good deed but then trumpets about it, is he altruistic?
No...that is clearly opportunism Aha--but what's wrong with telling a few people about it, if the action, say was done purely for the benefit of group A, and the people you tell are group B? That doesn't negate the benefits in any way that I can see. Who is or was this Dworkin dude, anyway? Rather unfortunate name...
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Carpal Tunnel
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you-both'll
Yes. It's the explicit dual number. And I've heard it used spontaneously in the wild by a Southron girl.
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in the wild by a Southron girl Faldage!!! My turn to be shocked!
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
Who is or was this Dworkin dude, anyway? Rather unfortunate name...
Actually, his name is Dawkins, author of "The Selfish Gene".
See: http://www.world-of-dawkins.com/Dawkins/Work/Books/selfish.shtml
More deserving of fame in AWAD circles, perhaps, as the coiner of the word "meme".
Bingley
Bingley
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Pooh-Bah
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Sorry, yes that's Dawkins. It was late. I was tired. The tired bit hasn't really changed, that's all.
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old hand
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old hand
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Hi, could you please define horsepucky for me  ?. You can be frank about it, I am no sociobiologist, and I also have some sneaky suspicions about them. I gather the "selfish gene" is already outdated.
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