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old hand
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In an otherwise serious trade journal, I just read the phrase:
"These machines represent the first truly new innovations.."
What's next?
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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More, please. Is that the entire sentence, or does it go on with something, maybe along the lines of ..."in advancing this particular technique"?
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Instead of "innovations", "truly new improvements"
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yeah. I was all set to rant against the rant along the lines of Jackie's question when it occurred to me that the complaint was probably about the 'new innovations'.
And *that got me wondering, do they stop being innovations when they are no longer new? Henry Ford's adaptation of the assembly line to automobile production was truly an innovation, but the assembly line in autmobile production today is not. Does that mean that Henry Ford's feat is no longer an innovation?
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veteran
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Are you sure? I thought it was the geminate period or the dropped third period of the ellipsis. When does an innovation become old hat? How do we distinguish Victorian innovations from Georgian ones?
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Carpal Tunnel
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Nope, they are still innovative in the milieu in which they were introduced. The assmebly line was new for its time and was thus an invention. Eli Whitney invented the cotton gin (or at least gets credit for it.) Neither is new now, but everything was new once. Even I! But that was a LONG time ago.
I guess you could say that innovation is time-sensitive.
TEd
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Does that mean that Henry Ford's feat is no longer an innovation?
No. It just means it's no longer a new innovation.
The word "innovation" includes the word "nov" for new, as you know.
Therefore, you can have old innovations or innovations which are no longer new, but you can't have "new" innovations ... unless the other innovations aren't really innovations at all, in which case you can have a "truly new innovation".
Hope this helps, Faldage.
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Carpal Tunnel
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The assmebly line was new for its time and was thus an invention.
Although this may *somehow be true when it comes to automobile assembly, I find this particular claim a wee bit (if not overbearingly) unbelievable. Mass production, no matter what "Ford" history may claim, wasn't invented. That's like someone inventing laziness. The "bucket brigade" method of fighting fires is certainly describing the exact method, however simple the task may be in comparison... but, then again, that's the whole point, isn't it?
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Pooh-Bah
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>>bucket brigade<<
The difference being that apart from the first and last positions on the line (respectively, gathering and throwing water), the tasks are undifferentiated nor is it production, unless of a service.
However, the assembly line presupposes standardization or parts which, I have it on poor authority, was an innovation of Elie Whitney's. Or at least of gun manufacturers. According to an article that appeared in the Economist several years ago, this had repurcussions in the American Civil War, when guns were first mass produced. Further, it has ramifications for the interpretataion of the original intention of the right to bear arms.
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Mass production, no matter what "Ford" history may claim, wasn't invented.
You're certainly right about that, Musick, but Henry Ford put his assembly line on the road to mass production.
That probably wasn't an invention. But it was one heck of an innovation, wouldn't you agree.
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Pooh-Bah
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Yeahbut. It took the British to work out how to completely screw production lines up as a way of life ...
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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The difference being that apart from the first and last positions on the line (respectively, gathering and throwing water), the tasks are undifferentiated nor is it production, unless of a service.
Yet its goals are the same: to break down a task to it's smallest parts (most happen to be the same in this case) and align the materials and labor so as to minimize waste and maximize speed.
Maybe we need forty bucket brigades and bigger buckets to put out the fire faster, but I'm not convinced task differentiation is intrinsic except where the delivery of service is being performed and it needs to be worded differently to make room for history to "write in" more innovations.
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I always thought that Ford just implemented some ideas from Frederick "Scientific Management" Taylor's studies. Céline used his experiences working for Ford in his Journey to the End of Night.
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Carpal Tunnel
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The Oldsmobile of 1901 was the earliest (so I've heard) assembly line "mass produced" car in the US, but Ford's addition of a conveyor belt just sped up everything (to meet his promises, of course).
Necessity is the mother of innovation? The rat will only bite when cornered? Purple monkey dishwasher?
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old hand
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Hi Faldage, ..when it occurred to me that the complaint was probably about the 'new innovations'. I'm glad you remembered your latin just in time  . This was indeed the subject of my shock. But the ensuing reactions show me that this "latin-sensitivity" is far from general. The author of the article I referred to wanted in fact to convey his opinion that earlier design changes by the same manufacturer were not true innovations, i.e. they did not add anything significant to the value of the machine. I found the expression "truly new innovations" plainly pleonastic.
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Carpal Tunnel
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I fear there's something of the fallcious about requiring words to retain meanings that are inherent in their etymologies.
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Yup. As much as I love etymologies and word histories, and in spite of the fact that etumon means 'true sense of a word according to its origin', I'd have to agree with you Faldo. Otherwise, one would have to say silly when one meant 'blessed' and blessed when one meant 'consecrated or sprinkled with blood'. OTOH, pleonasm is a great word!
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