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Joined: Jul 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
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I think we discussed this a while back. I tried a search on "w" and was unsuccessful in narrowing the field down too much. 
TEd
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Try searching on 'cwm' It'll narrow the field down a little.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
Actually, I'm not sure I agree with the description of "w" as a vowel in those circumstances. If the "w" is essentially silent and only modifies the pronunciation of the "o" in "how", in what essential way is that different from the "t" in "whistle"? Is "t" now a vowel as well?
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
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Like Cecil said: /w/ is a semi-vowel. I think it's only a "true" vowel in Welsh.
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
Cwm and crwth are the only words I know in English (both from Welsh / Cymru natch) that have {w} as a vowel /u/. As for vowels and semi-vowels, /w/ and /u/ are similar, but slightly different. (Same with /j/ (as in /jEs/) and /i/.) The thing with the vowel in, say, 'grow' /grow/, is that it's not really a pure vowel but a diphthong. It's like a Spanish or Italian /o/ followed by a /u/ being pronounced less as a vowel and more like a semi-vowel.
Here's what Peter Ladefoged at UCLA has to say about it: "A semi-vowel is a kind of apprimant consisting of an non-syllabic vowel occurring at the beginning or end of a syllable. When at the beginning of a syllable, it usually consists of a rapid glide from a high vowel position to that of the following vowel. The semi-vowels in English are /j/ and /w/, which are like non-syllabic versions of the English high vowels /i/ and /u/ respectively. In other languages there are three high vowels /i, u, y/. In some of these languages (e.g., French) thereis also a semi-vowel corresponding to the high front rounded vowel /y/. The symbol for this sound is /ɥ/, an inverted letter h." He gives an example for this latter semi-vowel in the French 'lui' /lɥi/. Hope this helps.
NB: I've used the Unicode character for the inverted h, which some of you will be able to see, depending on browser and OS. It is 0x0265 or 613.
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I think we discussed this a while back. Indeed we did--thus the first word in my subject title. Though it's a little strong to say that the feeling in that thread was that you were a moron if you thought w could be a vowel, I couldn't resist the play on words. I really just wanted to show some "proof" of what I was taught.
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
Well technically, it's a wrong to say that {w} is a vowel in Welsh or what have you. Welsh orthography uses {w} for the the vowel /u/ in some places, and {w} for a semi-vowel (as in {wy} == /wi/) in other places. Same with {w} in English. In 'cwm' /kum/, {w} represents a /u/. But mostly, {w} stands for /w/ as in win, wound, werewolf, cow, how, etc. Cf. the more naturalized combe in English which is an earlier loanword that got more naturalized. The history of the letters {j} and {w} in the (later) Latin alphabet is interesting. Romans used {I} and {V} to stand for both vowels and semi-vowels /i/ ~ /j/ and /u/ ~ /w/. Only later in the Middle Ages, did some start using an elongated {j} for the semi-vowel. And {w} came from literally two {u}s; cf. {ij} in Dutch for /aj/ as in Rijksmuseum.
Note: I use {} to delimit a grapheme (written glyph, letter), and // to delimit a phoneme (sound).
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Note: I use {} to delimit a grapheme (written glyph, letter), and // to delimit a phoneme (sound).
Yikes! Thanks for the reminder, jheem.
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