|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
"serious" only because of that apparatus.
Egg-zactly!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
>Huh? So whattiya think of country music, Mr. Openess?
By and large, I loathe it. I would not however, dismiss it as "not real songwriting", purely on the grounds that it doesn't suit my personal taste. Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't music.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
A good song always tells a story...Yeahbut ® only the ones with *good words and a good melody!  ********* ...the group "The Archies" didn't exist at all.The next thing your gonna tell me is that the Monke es didn't exist. {holding hands over ears "la-la-la-la-la"} ********* When you say "songwriter" my mind leaps immediately to folks like Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, Harry Chapin, Joni Mitchell, John Prine, Cat Stevens, James Taylor, etc...Grouping those together ties songwriter to a specific type/form of song which were not necessarily all good or even less "pop-pabulum", not to mention a (quite)specific *era of writer. You could have at least included Bjork... or even Steely Dan  for that matter... but I digress...)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Steely Dan is great!  Dey wuz part of the "etc." Uh, that's Monke es.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
The next thing your gonna tell me is that the Monkey's didn't exist. {holding hands over ears "la-la-la-la-la"}
After the movie Head was released in '68, one of the Beatles (either John or Paul) said it (and the Monkeys) was an accurate representation of the construction and marketing of a rock band. Just because the Monkeys didn't play their own instruments (no Beatle played on Eleanor Rigby) or write their own songs (Elvis?), you're going to deny them existence. How real were the Sex Pistols then? If the Archies didn't exist how could they have had a hit song on the charts? And don't get me started about Sig Sig Sputnik or Vanilla Ice.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
Milli Vanilli
That was the name I was trying to remember. Not Vanilla Ice. Anywho, it's a far different thing to say something is bad art as opposed to not art. That's all.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
there's also the difference between art and entertainment. sometimes art crosses over and is entertaining, and vice versa. but the two aren't necessarily the same. and aren't meant to be.
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
We may personally know a difference between art and entertainment but (*irregardless) they seem to, from what I can tell, have the same basic goals.
Communication/reflection/participation in/through/about ideas/ideals/creativity... maybe?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
er, maybe. I think that they both want to awaken or resonate with something inside us, but art hopes to reach something much deeper in ourselves than (*mere) entertainment. hmmm...
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
Like what... truth, beauty... my spleen?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
but the two aren't necessarily the same. and aren't meant to be.
Yep, I wasn't saying they should be. Just that for some critical judgment boils down to whether something was entertaining or not. Me, I find things entertaining that many find boring or ugly.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
spleenheh, or kidneys if the concert's a good one... Yep, I wasn't saying they should be. Just that for some critical judgment boils down to whether something was entertaining or not. Me, I find things entertaining that many find boring or ugly.right. I'm just discussing. it's that critical judgement piece that's missing for so many, I think. art makes me feel a connection with life, the universe and everything. entertainment can send me there, too, sometimes. some "art" never takes me there, though it may be entertaining. you mean you all don't agree?!
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
As fun as that sounded... AHD remembers:
spleen...
... 2. Obsolete - This organ conceived as the seat of emotions or passions.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
so many possibilities...
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 130
member
|
|
member
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 130 |
Jheem:
The Sex Pistols played their own instruments, albeit poorly at first. One of the basic tenets of punk rock was to go ahead and get out there and play, even if the talent wasn't yet up to snuff. It was in reaction to the overblown excesses of stadium rock at the time. Now, whether or not they were worth listening to is a question of taste. Me? I loved 'em!
Edit:
Oops! I don't think I absorbed your Pistols post before I reacted to it. My apologies. Touchy subject for this aging punk rocker.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
"God save the Queen" 
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
Not a problem, Comma-Doug. I loved the Sex Pistols. They transcended their Monkeehood. Never Mind the Bollocks is a great album. With praise like Sir Cliff Richards gives in the link below, who needs anything else? My first time in London, during that horrendous heatwave in '76, I witnessed some punk scariness in Finsbury Park that has stayed with me over the decades. Certainly put the weekend punks in Berekeley during the '80s and '90s into perspective. (BTW, ever heard the French version of Anarchy in the UK?) http://www.thefilthandthefury.co.uk/home.htmNow, to tie this post in with words and etymologies. Let's see we already did bollocks. How about the fact that band is plural in British English? Cf. the Beatles' "the band are not quite right" in Only a Northern Song.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
If The Archies didn't exist how could they have had a hit song on the charts?> Most ‘60s bubblegum groups were faceless studio concoctions, made up of hired professionals and given nominal group identities after the fact. The Archies made no pretense of being a real band in the first place — their music, including the smash hit "Sugar, Sugar," was “performed" by the animated TV cartoon characters spun off from Archie comics. In reality, of course, they were a studio concoction made up of hired professionals (most notably lead singer Ron Dante), but in this case, they weren't technically faceless.The Archies were created by promoter Don Kirshner, who was coming off of a major success as the creator of the Monkees. In late 1967, Kirshner was hired as music supervisor for CBS' new Saturday morning cartoon The Archie Show, which was to feature a new original song every week. He immediately brought on producer Jeff Barry, who with Ellie Greenwich had formed one of the pre-eminent songwriting teams of the girl-group era (Greenwich also sang on several Archies records). Kirshner's original choice for lead singer was Kenny Karen, but Barry brought in Ron Dante, an experienced session singer who'd fronted the Detergents' novelty parody "Leader of the Laundromat"; Dante had met Barry at a Neil Diamond session, and had previously cut promos for Kirshner. Dante won the job, and Barry hired Jeanie Thomas as the group's female vocalist. When the TV show debuted, it was a hit, and the first Archies single "Bang Shang-a-Lang" nearly made the Top 20 in late 1968. Shortly thereafter, Barry hired songwriter/backing vocalist Andy Kim, and replaced Thomas with Toni Wine. Barry and Kim co-wrote "Sugar, Sugar," which became a breakout smash in 1969; it topped the charts for four weeks, sold over three million copies in the U.S. alone, and wound up as Billboard's number one song of the year. Meanwhile, the TV show was expanded to a full hour, and Dante enjoyed a simultaneous Top Ten hit during "Sugar, Sugar"'s run, thanks to his lead vocal on the Cufflinks' "Tracy." The follow-up "Jingle Jangle" reached the Top Ten, but from there the Archies' chart success tailed off quickly. Their last Top 40 hit came in the spring of 1970 with "Who's Your Baby?"; the same year, Donna Marie replaced Toni Wine. However, by the end of 1970, Barry left the Archies to pursue other projects, and stories detailing the group's breakup named their primary personnel for the first time. Their final Barry-produced single was released in early 1971, although "A Summer Prayer for Peace" became a hit in South Africa later that summer. Ron Dante embarked on a short-lived solo career before moving into record production, and found substantial success as Barry Manilow's producer throughout the ‘70s; he also returned to singing on commercial jingles. Andy Kim went on to score a substantial solo hit in 1974 with "Rock Me Gently."< Allmusic.com: http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=UIDSUB040402062324300083&sql=Brn6uak4k5m3mI rest my case.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
But aren't voices a type of instrument?
TEd
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
voicesand they wrote the song, too!
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
Yes, they (Paul) wrote it and sang it. I was just saying that they (Beatles) didn't play musical instruments on it. (And, I call playing the human voice singing. Tryit with somebody else's instrument.) I remember the shock I had when I found out that the main guitar work on While My Guitar Gently Weeps was not Harrison, but Eric Clapton. For the record, I like the Beatles. Being a word person, too, I attach importance to lyrics (though not so much to how they're generated).
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,475 |
Looks interesting. Thanks, etaoin. Thought I'd mention contemporary American philosopher, Arthur Danto, who has several books out on these kinds of questions: The Madonna of the Future: Essays in a Pluralistic Art World, The Philosophical Disenfranchisement of Art , Beyond the Brillo Box: The Visual Arts in Post-Historical Perspective, and others. Hilary Putnam and Richard Rorty are also contemperary and their books are rather accessible and available.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I call playing the human voice singing. Try it with somebody else's instrument.
Of course, you might have as much success trying to play Anne-Sophie Mutter's instrument as you would trying to play Anne Sophie von Otter's. Still, folks who make their living singing *do refer to their voices as their instruments.
|
|
|
|
|
