#12214
12/13/2000 5:20 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Rhub said: Whatever else, the French are inexorably logical.
Stupid, but logical. Yup.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#12215
12/13/2000 8:49 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
In reply to:
fortnight = quinze jours
I occurs to me that a simpler explanation is that the French were using the ancient counting method (the Greek & Roman method, among others) whereby you counted both ends of a series. I always had a problem in Sunday School with the assertion that Christ rose from the dead on the third day [after he died]; couldn't figure how you got 3 days from p.m. Friday to early a.m. Sunday. The answer is that in ancient times they counted Friday (1), Saturday (2), Sunday (3). Hence Monday Jan 1 to Mon. Jan 15 is Jan 1 (1), Jan 2 (2) ... Jan 15 (15). Tout simple, n'est-ce pas?
While I'm at it, I trust everyone is aware that fortnight is pronounced fortnit. Also, for those of you who have never seen sennight in print, it's found is one of Rex Stout's Nero Wolfe stories (I forget offhand which one). Stout, and his creation, Wolfe, would have been ecstatic over this site.
|
|
|
#12216
12/13/2000 9:20 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347 |
>While I'm at it, I trust everyone is aware that fortnight is pronounced fortnit.
Just a clarification/question to ensure that we don't lead anyone astray here, Bob. I imagine you were concentrating on the syllable emphasis and let the phonetic spelling slip. Do you really pronounce it 'fortnit' or did you mean with a long i -'fortnite' - which is how most people say it here?
|
|
|
#12217
12/13/2000 9:34 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Bobyoungbalt explains: with the assertion that Christ rose from the dead on the third day [after he died]; couldn't figure how you got 3 days from p.m. Friday to early a.m. Sunday. The answer is that in ancient times they counted Friday (1), Saturday (2), Sunday (3).
Yeah, I had to work that one through when I was a kid, and decided they just couldn't count ... they certainly liked to keep you hanging around back in ancient times, didn't they?
Still, I'd like Dr Who's Tardis myself on this one, given someone else's assertion in another thread that all history is myth until proven ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#12218
12/13/2000 10:44 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
No no, Rhu. The term used is quinze jours not quinze nuits/soirs and no matter how you calculate it, it doesn't add up.
|
|
|
#12219
12/14/2000 6:56 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 444
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 444 |
At the risk of being overly pious, if you went back and substituted 'the English' or 'the Americans' or 'the Kiwis' for 'the French' in posts in this thread, AWAD would by now be in civil war.
We're all here because we're wordies. We happen to be wordies who are (mostly) native speaker of the world's dominant language. We complain (loads of us, including me!) about misuse of our language. Why are we being so mean about French people who care about their language?
BTW I do not agree with the way the Academie go about things and I think they are misguided, but I sympathise with the simple fact that they care about language.
|
|
|
#12220
12/14/2000 10:40 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
I agree Bridget. I am very interested in the fact that some people, in many different cultures, try to alter langauge by decree whilst other accept it as a living creature. I am not comfortable about generalised insults being offered to any people(s!). My interest is probably sharpened in that, like some others on this board I live in a bilingual, indeed bicultural, corner of the globe.
Participating in this forum has underlined for me that what we share is infinitely more important that what divides us; but that divisions can highlight fascinating differences of formative experience and just plain differences of taste.
Let's try and avoid generalised insults.
|
|
|
#12221
12/14/2000 11:05 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Okay, I'll be specific. (1) The homme manning the "information" desk at the railway station near Charles de Gaulle airport. (2) The ticket collector on the train from there to the Gare du Nord. (3) The gendarme who I asked for directions. (4) NOT the couple in the tavern, neither of whom spoke English (unlike the first three), but who tried to be helpful. But they weren't French, so that probably doesn't count ... and that was just the first hour in Paris in 1998. Now, going back to 1974, ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#12222
12/14/2000 4:24 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
|
|
veteran
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289 |
fortnight qua fortnit
No, Marty, I really did mean short vowel in last (unstressed) syllable. To be accurate, it's not really pronounced as short 'i'; being in the unstressed final syllable, it's actually pronouced more like schwa.
|
|
|
#12223
12/14/2000 7:59 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409 |
No, Marty, I really did mean short vowel in last (unstressed) syllable. To be accurate, it's not really pronounced as short 'i'; being in the unstressed final syllable, it's actually pronouced more like schwa.
Sez hu? NZ standard pronunciation is definitely "fortnite", and I have never yet heard anyone pronounce the word in the manner you describe. The pronunciation you describe screams "Sloane Ranger" to me, or perhaps the sort of person who still thinks "u" and "non-u"
|
|
|
#12224
12/14/2000 8:31 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
i'm with max-- i don't use the word-- but members of family do, and i did just here it used in past month on US TV, and it was fortnite--fort night and if anything its for(swallow your breath*)t-night but the swallow your breath is a nano second... how would you express that in a pronounciation guide?
|
|
|
#12225
12/14/2000 8:38 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 9
stranger
|
|
stranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 9 |
Interesting discussion re: fortnight and se'enight. I have seen both used in the novels by Patrick O'Brien ( a penname) that recount the adventures of Jack Aubrey and his faithful sidekick Stephen Maturin. The reference to furlongs per fortnight is a sendup of the whole nonsense of units of measure.
Which, by the way reminds me to ask how long a rod is, how big is a cubit, and what is a talent of silver weigh?
berdonmill
berdonmill
|
|
|
#12226
12/14/2000 9:00 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 197
member
|
|
member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 197 |
>>>Which, by the way reminds me to ask how long a rod is, how big is a cubit, and what is a talent of silver weigh?<<<
one rod is equal to 16.5 feet or 5.03meters. i can't help you with the others, but i'm sure someone here knows, or can find out.
|
|
|
#12227
12/14/2000 9:17 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
Just to widen the confusion beyond the French and their language - in Spanish a two-week period is referred to as a quinceno, also based on the number fifteen. So, perhaps there is some divide among Romance and Germanic languages on this one. I can't recall if Italian has a similar construction. Can anyone contribute on other possible languages on this divide?
Another odd note - in Spanish, to say "a week from Thursday," one says "Jueves en ocho" which is basically "8 days from Thursday." Another illustration of this counting difference, perhaps?
|
|
|
#12228
12/14/2000 9:27 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
HouseWolf asked Which, by the way reminds me to ask how long a rod is, how big is a cubit, and what is a talent of silver weigh?
Yes, and how much is a lac of silver worth? I remember listening to an British-Indian comedy programme on the radio in Britain a year or so ago. The skits almost always were about arranged marriages and dowries. The dowry was alway measured in lacs, and the skits almost always dissolved into a hilarious discussion of the value of a lac ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#12229
12/14/2000 11:05 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544 |
Kiwi wrote: Yes, and how much is a lac of silver worth?
Going back to our friends the French, a lac of silver in that language (i.e. a lake) would be worth a LOT. The Indian word is lakh, which means 100,000, and is used to denote quantities of rupees (e.g. 50 lakhs of rupees).
BTW - my first ever use of markup, thanks to the advice in the FAQ and a suggestion from Marty to read it!
p.s. - just found an alternative spellling of this as lac - for the same numerical definition. Can also mean simply a great number: what a lakh (certainly no lack) of wordies on this board!
|
|
|
#12230
12/14/2000 11:44 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 866 |
Wasn't the length of a cubit adjusted every time the Egyptians got a new Pharoah? From the tip of his "tall man" finger to his elbow. Not a wonder the people hoped the Pharoah would live for ever - they had to change all the maps and plans every time one croaked!!
stales
|
|
|
#12231
12/15/2000 12:00 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
Allo Bridget,
I was not attacking French people. I was attacking the notion that they find it better to INVENT words than to accept an English word that is in use be the entire population. Inventing words is not protecting your language at all. In our case it is simply a form of anti-Englishism which I find extreme.
I am French and I love my language. I love my people. But I don`t think this method is acceptable. It is important to care about one`s language but I do not think we should let people do just anything because they care. If someone is misguided, should they not be alerted to it?
As to my "quinze jours is vraiment stupide" post...well it is. Even friends and family agree that it doesn`t make sense. It is just an expression that has hung around forever.
|
|
|
#12232
12/15/2000 3:55 AM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 197
member
|
|
member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 197 |
>>>in Spanish a two-week period is referred to as a quinceno, also based on the number fifteen<<<
could this be a measure of half a month rather than a two week period? another possibility may be that they count both the beginning thursday and the ending thursday, which would be 8 or 15 days.
|
|
|
#12233
12/15/2000 9:24 AM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315 |
Xara, you are absolutely right, we say in Italian "una quindicina di giorni" and we don't think at weeks, but just have the feeling of "a measure close to half month".
Ciao
Emanuela
|
|
|
#12234
12/15/2000 4:20 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Wasn't the length of a cubit adjusted every time the Egyptians got a new Pharoah?
Right. The cubit varied from place to place and time to time, but it was always defined as the distance from the tip of the middle finger to the elbow. Typically about 18".
Lakh is related etymologically to the lox of bagel with lox. The IE word originally referred to the fish but became applied to other things as the word spread beyond the range of the salmon. Sometimes it was another fish but it also was applied to the color of the salmon and became part of the word lacquer and some large number, e.g., 10,000 from the fish's habit of coming in large groups during the spawning season.
|
|
|
#12235
12/15/2000 4:48 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Huh?
you're pulling our leg, right? – Lacquer is related to Lac– as in shellac– which is a resinous compound made by dissolving some insect*– (fill in a Latin name here) in alcohol. The insects shell dissolves, and you strain out the meaty bits.. and the result is shellac. It is pale amber to red in color... (*thousand of insects..)
Lacquer is shellac that has been fortified with organic compounds– (tree stuff of some sort–fruit? Sap? Crushed leaves?) there is also a process for dissolving the oxide of mercury in lacquer– to make a cinnabar.– wait that's wrong– mercuric oxide is yellow– mercury and sulfur? Mercury and something... (Actually in previous life, I was an alchemist... I am and remain to all who know me 47– but it's a cover story– I didn't learn how to transmute lead into gold, but I did learn the secret of eternal life.. To bad I have outlive the usefulness of my brain!)
Now lakh might well mean thousands... but to salmon and pink? Or to lox... show me how!
Really-- if its true, i want to hear the story of the connection.
|
|
|
#12236
12/15/2000 5:12 PM
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
Miz Helen Ledasdottir complains: Now lakh might well mean thousands... but to salmon and pink? Or to lox... show me how! Really-- if its true, i want to hear the story of the connection.AHD ( http://www.bartleby.com/61/roots/IE262.html) doesn't help me past the lox This etymological ramble is rescued from the deep, dark and dank recesses of my memory. I'm thinking maybe Mario Pei's The Story of Language. Quick check of lacquer and shellac shows that the AHD traces the lac element ( http://www.bartleby.com/61/59/L0005900.html) to the Sanskrit. Maybe the IE WordWizards have changed their collective mind since the dark ages of my intro to linguisitics, but it sure sounds good, doesn't it? I got another one involving tapping a desk, pouring a beer and cutting threads in a hole that they seem to have abandoned me on, too.
|
|
|
#12237
12/15/2000 5:43 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Faldage said: ... bagel with lox ...LOX is, of course (and how could you not have made this connection ...?) Liquid OXygen. Used in the space program, amongst lots of other usages. Didn't know you could get it kosher, though. 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#12238
12/15/2000 5:51 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Whoa! Faldage continues, quoting HOT, whose comments launched a thousand quips: Miz Helen Ledasdottir complains: Now lakh might well mean thousands... but to salmon and pink? Or to lox... show me how! Really-- if its true, i want to hear the story of the connection.If I were inclined to self-recrimination over small slips, I would probably, at this juncture, point out that I originally posted the word lac. I would also point out (if, as I said, I was into mental flagellation), that I didn't bother looking up the spelling first. My understanding of Hindi or any other Indian language is zip. I spelled it as it sounded. O me miseram. Mea maxima culpa. I have since done this, and lakh appears to be the correct spelling. 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#12239
12/15/2000 6:02 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa--
Okay so Lac--as in shellac and lacquer are related-- but is there any relation of lakh to lox? Maybe--
But a relation of lac as in shellac/lacquer to lakh and then to lox? that doesn't sound kosher-- what with insects and all...
|
|
|
#12240
12/16/2000 12:46 PM
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
In reply to:
Which, by the way reminds me to ask how long a rod is, how big is a cubit, and what is a talent of silver weigh?
The weight of a talent varied from place to place. In Euboea and Athens, one talent was equal to 25.86 kg. Elsewhere on the Greek mainland it was 37.8 kg.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
#12241
12/17/2000 6:23 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 444
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 444 |
>Okay, I'll be specific. (1) The homme manning the "information" desk at the railway station near Charles de Gaulle airport. (2) The ticket collector on the train from there to the Gare du Nord. (3) The gendarme who I asked for directions. (4) NOT the couple in the tavern, neither of whom spoke English (unlike the first three), but who tried to be helpful. But they weren't French, so that probably doesn't count ... and that was just the first hour in Paris in 1998. Now, going back to 1974, ...< CapK, are you talking about the French, or the Parisians? I'm going to get myself into trouble by denouncing people for using stereotypical generalisations and then doing it myself... ...but actually, when I went back and read them this time, the comments struck me far less strongly. And I thought use of emoticons helped! Hence I put one in above to show that this was not a serious comment about all Parisians! For the record, I didn't ever believe anyone meant to be derogatory, but we started off with a discussion of the shortcomings of language policing and ended up with 'the French are logical, but stupid'. I don't quite know what to make of this, but I noticed it and it's hard to see it as positive.
|
|
|
#12242
12/17/2000 6:27 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 444
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 444 |
Mais si, it adds up! Fifteen days hung around fourteen nights - makes perfect sense.
When you book into a hotel for Saturday night, you can spend two days there - Saturday and Sunday. This is the same thing over a longer time period.
|
|
|
#12243
12/17/2000 6:28 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 444
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 444 |
>The term used is quinze jours not quinze nuits/soirs and no matter how you calculate it, it doesn't add up<
Mais si, it adds up! Fifteen days hung around fourteen nights - makes perfect sense.
When you book into a hotel for Saturday night, you can spend two days there - Saturday and Sunday. This is the same thing over a longer time period.
|
|
|
#12244
12/17/2000 7:29 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
Bridget asked: CapK, are you talking about the French, or the Parisians?
Actually my response didn't address the issue. The Parisians I've met are, on the whole, rude. And rudeness was the basis of my response.
When I said "stupid but logical", what I meant was that they use logic to arrive at places that no one else normally does. When they arrive there, they will defend the position to the death, regardless of its value.
In this instance we were discussing French language purity and the fact that the French are like King Knut/Canute was reputed to have been - defenders of the undefendable. You can no more stop change in language than you can the tides. To try to legislate against adoption of words from other languages does two things: It makes you appear elitist, and if even partially successful, isolates your culture. In this day and age, most countries/languages have realised that. The French, as exemplified by their academics and government, haven't. What does that make them - especially when you take all the rest of their little xenophobic quirks into consideration?
Having said all that, I should point out that I was referring to the culture and its effect on individuals, not individuals' thought processes. I think bel realised that.
If Max ever gets his fan club working to his advantage, he'd probably agree with me that one of NZ's worst traits is the "tall poppy syndrome".
If a Kiwi does well at something, sooner or later there will be an attempt by the culture to cut him or her "down to size". I hate that - it's a hangover from the post-depression era. For fifty years mediocrity was a value that the government encouraged. Sameness and underachievement were used to justify the stultifying economic stagnation engendered by the protectionist, closed-loop "nanny government" approach from the 1930s to the early 1980s. The economic approach died with the National Government in 1984, but the cultural influences just keep on truckin'.
Cheers
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#12245
12/17/2000 3:15 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
If a Kiwi does well at something, sooner or later there will be an attempt by the culture to cut him or her "down to size". I hate that - it's a hangover from the post-depression era.
Dear Cap ... The Kiwis are not alone in this one. The Hawaiians talk about crabs in a barrell... when one reaches the rim the others pull him back down. Then there's the Irish saying "Put an Irishman on a spit and you'll have no trouble finding two others to turn him." All reflective of the same trait in human nature. Why do we berate instead of boost? Jealousy? Or, dare I say, even (deadly sin) envy?
Then there is the whole phenomena of gossip ....
|
|
|
#12246
12/17/2000 6:43 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
'fraid we Brits are vey guilty of this. The moment anyone starts to become successful the knives are out. Sad.
|
|
|
#12247
12/17/2000 9:04 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
>use logic to arrive at places ... (and) defend the position to the death.... I-Maginot that!!!
TEd
|
|
|
#12248
12/17/2000 11:36 PM
|
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146 |
TEd mused: >use logic to arrive at places ... (and) defend the position to the death.... I-Maginot that!!!Gedorff! Maginot is a French word meaning "pointless defensive point not defended." It's the exact antonym, not a synonym! 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
|
|
|
#12249
12/18/2000 1:39 AM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891 |
Mais si, it adds up! Fifteen days hung around fourteen nights - makes perfect sense.When you book into a hotel for Saturday night, you can spend two days there - Saturday and Sunday. This is the same thing over a longer time period.
Mais non, Bridget. If you calculate it that way we should really be saying seize jours, not quinze. Write it out on a piece of paper and you will see that I am right.
Typically, most people work from Monday to Friday. When they go on vacation/holiday they start on the Saturday and finish on the Sunday of the second week, as follows...
Sat, Sun, Mon, Tue, Wed, Th, Fr, Sat, Sun, Mon, Tue, Wed, Th, Fr, Sat, Sun.
A total of seize jours, not quinze.
|
|
|
#12250
12/18/2000 12:33 PM
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
'fraid we Brits are vey guilty of this. The moment anyone starts to become successful the knives are out...
A famous chef from Paris is touring Wales. He stops at a samll seaside restaurant, and chooses lobster from the menu. The waiter points to a shallow tank, and asks the chef to pick his own. "Sacré bleu! Ow is it possible - if we kept our Paris lobsters in such a shallow tank they would all run to Dieppe!" exclaims the chef. "No problem, here", says the waiter. "They're Welsh lobsters - if one tried to get out, the other bastards would all murder him!"
|
|
|
#12251
12/18/2000 9:15 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204 |
Sat, Sun, Mon, Tue, Wed, Th, Fr, Sat, Sun, Mon, Tue, Wed, Th, Fr, Sat, Sun.
A total of seize jours, not quinze.
This can only work if you are talking about the working week, ma belle bel (I would have called you "bon bel" but for the possible offence you might take with ref. to the laughing cow! ) The whole point about the term "fortnight" is that it can be used about a period that starts on any day, related to any activity, as in, "I will see you again a fortnight today." Are you telling me that "quinze jours" can only be used to denote the period between one week-end and another? If so, then you are right and I withdraw with a graceful bow, but I had always believed that the two phrases were equivalent.
|
|
|
|
|
