#11395
11/29/2000 12:57 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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I was reminded today of the British use of 'minute' as a verb; to wit: "On the 14th Churchill minuted Cadogan....", or "In no case should I phone him or minute him; even the internal lines were taboo." I guess this is equivalent to the American usage of "memoing one's colleagues". 
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#11396
11/29/2000 2:00 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I don't know, but if I find an answer, I'll fax it to you.
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#11397
11/29/2000 5:14 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 197
member
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member
Joined: Oct 2000
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If you can verb an noun, can you noun a verb? I can't think of any examples.
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#11398
11/29/2000 5:22 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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I was going to post that "That was a good get" is an example of noun verbing, one that sports commentators seem to like. Then I checked Merriam-Websters online dictionary only to find that it lists "get" as a noun with one meaning being "a return of a difficult shot in a game (as tennis)". I haven't researched it further, but I'd bet it originated from nouning a verb. There are probably a lot more like it.
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#11399
11/29/2000 9:46 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
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Posts: 1,004 |
An 'out' in baseball. Has to be a nouned verb.
Also, what about nouned adjectives: the 'whites' of their eyes?
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#11400
11/29/2000 4:57 PM
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Still in the basebal motif, the radio announcer says "He flyed to center field." "Flyed"?!
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#11401
11/29/2000 10:16 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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>An 'out' in baseball. Has to be a nouned verb.
Hang on a minute, shanks. It's only a nouned verb if it's come from the verb 'to out'. Given that it's come from the expression 'to go out' or 'to get out', I'd say it's a nouned adverb (or do I mean preposition? Help me please someone!).
I suppose 'to out' is a verb with a different sense. Did it originate as a verbed adverb/preposition?
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#11403
11/29/2000 10:48 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>I was reminded today of the British use of 'minute' as a verb
The only sense I think it is used these days would be in "to minute a meeting", although the expression "to take minutes" would also be used. What would be the US English equivalent?
Isn't "to mail", rather than "send an e-mail" another example?
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#11404
11/29/2000 11:12 PM
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Jo, I've never heard anyone say mail instead of e-mail someone. I often hear people asking about getting the minutes of the meeting but never about someone taking the minutes. Usually they are just asked to take notes.
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#11405
11/29/2000 11:42 PM
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>The only sense I think it is used these days of the two citations I gave... hang on a second... In reply to:
I was reminded today of the British use of 'minute' as a verb; to wit: "On the 14th Churchill minuted Cadogan....", or "In no case should I phone him or minute him; even the internal lines were taboo."
...the first is from Stephen Dorril's "MI6" published this year and the second is from LeCarre's "Tinker, Tailor...". [where does the period belong in that last sentence?] both seem to be of the sense to write [a memo] to.
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#11406
11/30/2000 11:15 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346 |
both seem to be of the sense to write [a memo] toI'd agree with Jo that this isn't a common usage. You don't often even minute a meeting - you take minutes. Perhaps it's primarily used in political/governmental circles. I think the implication is that you aren't just writing a letter, you're writing a pithy summary of salient points (minuting) and passing that on by internal post - like a memo but far more secure. However, we used to talk about memoing people back before email became commonplace, so there's your noun verbing. In fact when we first had company-specific (as opposed to Internet) email facilities we used to call emails memos. 
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#11407
11/30/2000 7:35 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
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Actually he flied OUT to center field. Made a fly out. They've probably been using this since the first radio broadcast of a baseball game. My dictionary has it as a past tense of fly with the stipulation that it's only for baseball.
I tried in my mind "He flew to center field" and "He flew out to center field" and I kept getting this image of Harry Potter on a broom.
TEd
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#11408
12/01/2000 5:32 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 197
member
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member
Joined: Oct 2000
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Isn't "to mail", rather than "send an e-mail" another example?
I can accept that a verb minute comes from a noun directly, or to say that one is memoing comes from the noun memo, but mail? I have mailed things all my life. If ever the verb or noun was derived from the other both versions have been part of my life since I had vocabulary. I have always accepted mail to be one of those words that has various meanings, and various parts of speech. I don't think of the verb as being derived from the noun.
It's time for the human race to enter the solar system.
--Governor George W. Bush Jr.
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#11409
12/01/2000 8:32 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
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>I have mailed things all my life.
Whereas I have always posted my letters, not mailed them.
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#11410
12/02/2000 3:44 AM
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xara, I know this has nothing to do with this thread title but what on earth is GWBush getting on about in this quote of yours. I am sure it must mean something of note since you have used it a few times. Seeing as we are on the Earth, which is in orbit around the sun, and is not the last planet out, the human race IS in the solar system. ???
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#11411
12/02/2000 7:33 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
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>the human race IS in the solar system
I think that maybe the point
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#11412
12/02/2000 9:03 PM
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Colour me clueless Jo. Maybe I'd understand the quote if I knew in what context he was saying it.
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#11414
12/03/2000 11:56 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
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>the human race IS in the solar system
I think that maybe the point
Well, I rather think the point is that George W. Bush Jr isn't in the Solar System. So he can't be human. Unless, of course, Planet Reebok has moved?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#11415
12/03/2000 12:00 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
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Colour me clueless Jo. Maybe I'd understand the quote if I knew in what context he was saying it.
... and he'd understand it, too, if he understood the context he was saying it in.
Here's my pet hate in terms of turning perfectly good nouns into perfectly bad verbs: To progress something. It's becoming common usage - at least in the IT industry - and my oft-stated position that "English is changing all the time, and we shouldn't complain" starts breaking down (as do I) whenever I hear it.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#11416
12/03/2000 8:45 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
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George W. Bush Jr
I shouldn't have to point this out, but GW isn't a junior. Junior only applies when all parts of the name are the same. His father is George H. W. Bush. So be it if I sound partisan here, but calling him junior is obviously a Democrat ploy to make him sound young and inexperienced, when in fact he's two years older than Gore, who actually was a junior, but, of course, no one cares to point any of this out. . .
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#11417
12/03/2000 9:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
I shouldn't have to point this out, but GW isn't a junior. Junior only applies when all parts of the name are the same. His father is George H. W. Bush. So be it if I sound partisan here, but calling him junior is obviously a Democrat ploy to make him sound young and inexperienced, when in fact he's two years older than Gore, who actually was a junior, but, of course, no one cares to point any of this out. . .
A point well made, Jazz. The refernce to Al Gore, Jr. led me to wondering about the wonderfully "regal" habit popular among some US citizens of numbering themselves a la Thurston Howell III. Is this a vestigial yearning for days of yore, or monarchist pretensions peeking out from behind a republican (note the lower case "r")
façade? A friend of mine is Rarotongan, and their custom is for sons to be called "Junior" while their father is alive, then to assume their given name on his death. My friend is the fourth to bear his given name, which he doesn't like. Even though his father is dead, he still goes by Junior, with the result that his son is known as "Junior Jr."
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#11418
12/03/2000 9:46 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
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I never meet anyone called "junior" here. A lot of friends have a family name which is used as a second Christian name, eg William. I don't see many people who have the same Christian names as their father - I bet the post gets a bit complicated in the mornings. When did the tradition start? I can think of Pitt the Younger and I'm sure better historians (Rhubarb Commando?) will find more examples.
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#11419
12/03/2000 11:10 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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In reply to:
I never meet anyone called "junior" here. A lot of friends have a family name which is used as a second Christian name, eg William. I don't see many people who have the same Christian names as their father - I bet the post gets a bit complicated in the mornings.
Ditto for me (almost), Jo. Using a grandparent's name as a first name as a mark of respect, or continuing on a parent's name as a middle name is one thing, but in societies where there is free choice, naming your child after yourself seems the height of vanity and/or silliness and the nadir of imagination to me. Sorry if I'm offending anyone here.
I did know one family where father and son were both Murray. When talking about them (but not TO them), the mother would refer to them as "Murray" and "Young Murray".
As for postal problems, just sharing a first name initial would be bad enough. I know another family where mother and three daughters all have two-syllable names beginning with 'S'. All very alliterative, but you wouldn't want to be expecting mail of a private nature.
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#11420
12/04/2000 2:44 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
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There are no 'juniors' amongst Québec names either. The child might have the name of a godparent as middle name, but that is not the one he/she is known by. Usually, junior is used to denote someone who has less experience, or who has not reached professional status (eg: junior hockey league)
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#11422
12/04/2000 7:33 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Feel sorry, then for Major Major Major Major ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#11423
12/04/2000 11:28 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>Major Major Major Major
That would be a Catch 22 Catch 22!
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#11424
12/04/2000 12:47 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
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I have this vague feeling that it was our Sovereign Lord Henry Eighth of that name who actually introduced the idea of numbering monarchs.
Bingley
Bingley
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#11425
12/04/2000 2:00 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
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Dunno about the origins of the use of Junior, but certainly the British Public Schools had a 'minor' (followed by Tertius? and Quartus?) to show younger brothers who were going through the same school as their elders. See, in The Complete Stalky & Co (Rudyard Kipling), the story with Mr Browning, Uncle Remus and Minor and Tertius running on the sands before 'Pot' Mullins' ash... (Wish I could remember the title of the story. It'll come to me.)
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#11426
12/04/2000 4:30 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>our Sovereign Lord Henry Eighth
How interesting, One was aware that our Sovereign Lord Henry Eighth had developed a particularly fine system for the numbering of one's wives but one didn't realise that he had made a comparible contribution in the numbering of monarchs. Marvellous.
Would one be so kind as to provide one with furhter references so one can pursue the matter at one's leisure?
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#11427
12/04/2000 5:04 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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One was aware that our Sovereign Lord Henry Eighth had developed a particularly fine system for the numbering of one's wives
He also had a particularly fine system for ridding himself of them ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#11428
12/04/2000 5:33 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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expecting mail of a private nature
True - my initials are A.K. to my Dad's D.A., and we both live in Welsh houses with a name beginning Croes-y-forwyn...
But postie doesn't get confused too much - after all, he's a twin to our relief postman, and we're more likely to confuse them!
But I see no problem with noun verbing, tsuwm - it's surely a natural process of elision. Telephoning? and yes, definitely minuting: it is often used to draw attention in a meeting to a statement that is required as a formal declaration, such as "Mr Mayor, I would like it minuted that I was not doing any such thing - and anyway, it was my own goat!"
PS: the house name translates roughly as Cross of the Virgins - the name of the village is the impossible-looking EGLWYSWRW, but try rendering the W as U, and you can see the similarity to BelM's word for Church, thus betraying the Latin root of quite a bit of later Welsh.
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#11429
12/04/2000 5:51 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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>But I see no problem with noun verbing, tsuwm - it's surely a natural process of elision. well sure, if there's a gaping hole, just waiting to be filled. what I find objectionable is words such as (to return to an earlier example which cropped up here) *productize*...
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#11430
12/04/2000 6:19 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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Yes. I entirely agree, tsuwm. In the example of "to minute", I think it forms a useful enough shortcut for "to formally record the exact sense of..."
My only trouble in gauging this kind of formation is that I end up having to refer only to my personal (and doubtless idiosyncratic) sense of euphony to guide me in what is good, bad or indifferent. But maybe that is the best guide?
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#11431
12/04/2000 6:39 PM
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okay, here's an example we could try for size. in our staff meetings we typically have two separate activities going on: 1) the taking of minutes; i.e., the recording of status, ideas, etc; and 2) the recording of action items; i.e., things that need to happen by a specified date in the future. you might have one person recording both, but the second gets some kind of emPHAsis. if we call the first minuting what should we call the second? actioning? actionating?! [ptooey]
I'm afraid we resort to "take an action".
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#11432
12/04/2000 6:47 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Yep, this is a problem for me too. I have frequently come across "to action" in business minutes as shorthand for "to place under an imperative order to achieve an outcome". I think it is ugly, and probably unnecessary. But others may feel it is a simple and useful word, perhaps? This is one of the rare times in my life when I feel there are too many minutes in the day
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#11433
12/04/2000 9:21 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
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In our meetings we have someone who takes notes and draws up a "to do" list. I am sure this is quite a common term. Usually, the items on the to do list have a critical path attached to them (the steps to follow and date restrictions et al)
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#11434
12/05/2000 3:40 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
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Hey, you! Why didn't you wipe your feet before taking a walk?
Those are the ugliest shoes I've ever seen.
Watch it, buster, you just stepped on another crack!
TEd
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