|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
On Staurday, my References page was the Link Of The Day at http://userfriendly.org, one of my favouirite web cmoic strips. One of the nearly 1,00 people who visited my site on that day gave two new siites to add: http://www.martindalecenter.com/Language.htmlhttp://translation.langenberg.comThe latter site is a sort of translation portal, accessing several different translation engines. The former features a "Language Identifier", which invites you to enter at least 56 words in any language, and then let it try to identify the language. If it fails, it asks for more words. I did this with Maaori, and the guesses went "Malay", "Swahili", Finnish_utf8". At least its first choice is Austronesian. Both sites will at least let you insult people in bizarre, uncivilised languages, such as Welsh. I hope you enjoy them.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475
addict
|
|
addict
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 475 |
that is cool, but I typed in penguin and it could find no equivalent, despite the fact that penguin is a welsh word that has come over into english. aw 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
Very intersting stuff, dodyskin. I was thinking, Huh? How could the Welsh have a word for a bird that (with one exception) is entirely and exclusively based in the Southern Hemisphere?" Then I looked it up:
Etymology:obsolete English penguin great auk, perhaps from Welsh pen gwyn white head (applied to the bird in winter plumage)
Date: 1588
Does anybody know when the word was first used to refer to spheniscids?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
lol! I am still struggling, however, with the true Welsh vernacular for "cheese-eating surrender monkies", without which phrase no civilised discourse is possible... :)
Congrats, Max - you now officially have a better mousetrap. I guess Oedipus'll have the answer to your delightful penguin question.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
>Does anybody know when the word was first used to refer to spheniscids? someone could LIU; meantimes, here's some interactive pen gwyns: http://www.lecielestbleu.com/media/penguinframe.htm
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
some interactive pen gwyns
Shouldn't that be pens gwyn?
My first stop on the etymological path of discovery to the switch from auks to spheniscids would be the OED. Did you have any particular someone in mind, tsuwm?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
no; any ole nits picker would do.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
any ole nits picker
I thought that perhaps one with access to OED on line might be a logical choice.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
LOL! you guys, does I hafta knock yer white head togethers?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 3,230 |
any ole nits picker
I thought that perhaps one with access to OED on line might be a logical choice.
Now there's glory for you!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
when the word was first used to refer to spheniscids
Almost immediately. The first cite, refering to the Great Auk, is from 1578. The spheniscidae got the name in 1588. OED1, FWIW, questions the validity of the claim that the word is from the Welsh.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
> [doubts] the word is from the Welsh
Can't say I am surprised by that - the general picture is of an astonishing paucity of Welsh in the formation of the English language, given the history of these islands. I guess unlike the Saxon's knives and the spears of the other tribes, the Brythonic tribes were not remarkable for fighting prowess so their status was diminished; and their culture became sadly undervalued in the historical long term.
Does OED1 suggest an alternative etymology , Faldage?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
an alternative etymology
They say Origin obscure. AHD4 says Possibly from Welsh pen gwyn, with a mention of a Newfoundland island of the same name (or either White Head, not sure which). OED1 mentions the island but expresses lack of confidence that it was so named early enough to be the source of the bird's name. Perhaps later OEDs have more up to date info.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
In reply to:
Can't say I am surprised by that - the general picture is of an astonishing paucity of Welsh in the formation of the English language, given the history of these islands.
I did read an article in English Today, saying basically that the first compilers of the OED only looked at Celtic languages if they couldn't find an etymology anywhere else. Basically, for whatever reason, they didn't want to acknowledge the influence of the Celtic languages on English.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
they didn't want to acknowledge the influence of the Celtic languages on English.
!!!!!!!!!!!!! Shocking.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
> an article in English Today
Factskinhating. Got any idea how/when/where I might find that, Bing?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Thanks, ASp - ew, but I am finding it buggy trying to get around that site (eg, "Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a005e' Invalid use of Null
/journals/includes/string_utils.asp, line 92 ")
I haven't managed to even get an abstract of the actual article, or even subscription details for an individual. Bing, do you get the paper or online version, or both? If online, is it bugridden to use? Do you have any detail of the author or date or title of the article?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
It's sort of bugging out on me too, now, Mac or no Mac. I remember subscription is £71 for brick-and-mortar or online; £78 for both.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757 |
Yes, I saw that, with a description attached that it was an institutional rate but. Couldnae find oot else.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
The article was in issue No. 63 (Vol. 16 No. 3) July 2000. Where have all the Celtic words gone? by Loreto Todd. Maybe your local library could get you a copy?
I used to subscribe. They stopped doing the crossword last year, so I didn't renew my subscription this year. Also, the earliest ones I have are very similar to AWADtalk in their ethos, but it's been more and more taken over by the academics.
IIRC, the online subscription was for institutions only. Individuals can only get a print subscription.
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,916
Posts230,422
Members9,211
| |
Most Online17,319
Apr 8th, 2026
|
|
|
|
