#11247
11/27/2000 9:08 PM
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FatherSteve asked about the origins of the expresion >"The Saracens are at the gate." <
but what about other expressions..
Nyer's eat "danish" a sweet breakfast roll.. in Denmark there is no such thing, the closest you can come it to a Vienna roll. which is, of course unheard of in Vienna!
and while i have spent very little time in Vienna, i never once saw the little sausages that are common sold in tins as Vienna sausages. do they exist in Vienna? and how about other foods or items, would i find a cabinet like mine in Wales? Its sold in US as "Welsh dresser".
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#11248
11/28/2000 1:41 AM
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Well, Helen, down here we say a "New York minute".
Now, as to a Welsh dresser--mav told me that he dresses with a nude vicar. Oh, no, wait--he said renewed vigor. Must be all that rain.
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#11249
11/28/2000 3:04 AM
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The only person who ought properly dress with a nude vicar is the nude vicar's spouse. So sayeth this vicar.
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#11250
11/28/2000 6:28 PM
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>Nyer's eat "danish" a sweet breakfast roll..
I know, teacher, I know!
There is a Jewish delicacy called a knish, which is dough stuffed with various substances and baked or fried. Around the turn of the century (well, not this past one) an Italian deli owner in New York began making rolls with sweet dough and stuffing them with a sweetened soft cheese. He didn't have a name for it, but soon he had all these Jews coming in asking for "da knish" and that's how the name came about.
TEd
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#11251
11/28/2000 8:30 PM
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well only if you allow for cheese danish-- and not poppy seed or prune..
and what about what "a NY steak" commonly known in NY as a London Broil-- and what do londoners call that cut of meat? (and what cut is it? i dunno. Daddy was a butcher, and I never learned how to by meat i just placed orders)
and knish, which is dough stuffed with various substances they are basicly Potato (with some variations, like potato and onion) and kasha. One kasha knish and you don't need (and can't!) eat again for a week. a little kasha goes a long way
*Kasha is buckwheat groats. **groat--hulled grain broken into fragments larger than grits.
Okay Jackie how big is a grit? groats (uncooked) about 1/4 a grain of large grained rice. (such as a carolina rice), about 1/3 the size of a medium (Italian) grained rice and not as fat around as a short grained sticky Chinese rice grain! so about 1/3 the size of the Chinese rice too.
Good for breakfast, or mixed with Pasta, or ground into flour, to make buckwheat pancakes--either with straight buchwheat flour, or mixed with white flour.
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#11252
11/29/2000 11:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>would I find a cabinet like mine in Wales? Its sold in US as "Welsh dresser" That would be Mrs Catherine Zeta Jones Douglas. I do have a Welsh dresser and I once lived in Wales. Unusually this may be a rare "correct" example. http://www.decibel.co.uk/ceramicsjournal/journal001/welsh/welsh3.htmOn the other hand. I posted a little while ago that I had never seen an "English muffin" until I went to New York. I am also suspicious of "Belgian waffles" - we just call them waffles and I can't remember seeing them as any kind of speciality in Belgium (although I'm willing to be corrected). The Netherlands specialise in pancakes, so I suppose Belgium must make waffles. We have several brands labelled as "American" when the closest the product (eg rather indifferent ice cream, not Hagen Das or Ben & Jerries) has been to America is that the person who made it has a distant relative there.
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#11253
11/29/2000 11:38 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>commonly known in NY as a London Broil
I've never heard of it, I'll seek one out. I'm not completely sure what "broil" means.
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#11254
11/29/2000 11:43 PM
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My sister's ex-mother-in-law (boy, that's a mouthful) was from Belgium. She and all her family before her, made a waffles but they eat them as snacks, not breakfast food.
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#11255
11/29/2000 11:57 PM
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In reply to:
I'm not completely sure what "broil" means
I think UK and NZ English are at one on this - "broil" = "grill" 
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#11256
11/30/2000 12:27 AM
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The Belgian Pavilion at the 1964-1965 World Fair in New York featured Belgian waffles as a national dish. I coveted the ones served with fresh strawberries and whipped cream. So I guess the Belgians thought of them as theirs. That any help? I particularly loved the Irish Pavilion for the coffee on cool days  and the Indian Pavilion for the great food -- my first intro to real curry! And I made a good friend there. Returned to Fair in '65 and it was even better. Aloha, wow
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#11257
11/30/2000 3:14 AM
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Look what's in the opening paragraph in Jo's link
(I added the bold):
...the time when Welsh culture was loosing its distinctive characteristics...
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#11258
11/30/2000 6:44 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 11
stranger
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stranger
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Hey Max,
Canadian English equates "grill" with "fry" on as the Americans sometimes call it, the griddle or "grill" is used to describe a "Charcoal Broiler" or BBQ. "Broil" usually is used to descibe cooking either over an open flame or under it.
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#11259
11/30/2000 7:16 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>She and all her family before her, made a waffles but they eat them as snacks, not breakfast food.
I'll concede on waffles being Belgian then.
Myself, I'll stick with Belgian chocolate - heavenly!
I wonder where the idea of pancakes and waffles for breakfast originated? The Dutch seem to like pancakes and Eastern Europeans are fond of blini.
I posted a while ago that I had heard that breakfast was important when people were travelling on the wagon train to the West. The fires were still going from the night before, so it was the best time to cook a hot meal, pancakes were quick, easy and filling.
One of my American friends was amused when she met some elderly American ladies in a tour group in Paris. One of them turned to her and said "Do you know, they gave us bread for breakfast!"
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#11260
11/30/2000 1:22 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
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I think UK and NZ English are at one on this - "broil" = "grill"
Oh no they're not, me old son!
I've never heard other UK people use the word "broil" - and if they did, they would probably consider it closer to "boil" than "grill", just because of the sound.
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#11261
11/30/2000 3:35 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I think the only place you would hear it here would be in an American hamburger place. They talk about char-broiled burgers and I'm sure most people here haven't a clue what they mean. I'd always guessed that it was some kind of charcoal grill, which sounds like it is true.
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#11262
11/30/2000 3:43 PM
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'broiled' is supposed to be healthier than 'fried' (both are done on one type of 'grill' or another in a restaurant).
broiling involves letting the grease drip through a grated grill or pan -- less grease with your meat; on a flat grill, you fry the meat in the grease. BBQing is a type of broiling/grilling.
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#11263
11/30/2000 4:01 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>on a flat grill, you fry the meat in the grease
The problem is that we would never fry on a grill. We fry in a frying pan. We grill under a grill (a grill has a flame or electric element above the grill pan which slides underneath). The only place we might grill with the flame underneath is a on a barbecue but we'd probably call that barbecuing, not grilling.
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#11264
11/30/2000 4:29 PM
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what do you call an "industrial grade" frying grill -- restaurants don't all fry in pans, do they?
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#11265
11/30/2000 5:03 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I don't know. I'll find out.
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#11266
11/30/2000 6:00 PM
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The Canadian recipe books I have refer to broil as putting a piece of meat on the top rack in the oven and turning on the top element only. With red/white meats, this is often done in a two-tier dish to let the fat drip off. With fish (which is usually leaner) it is done in a regular dish.
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#11267
11/30/2000 6:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
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In reply to:
I think UK and NZ English are at one on this - "broil" = "grill"
Oh no they're not, me old son!
I've never heard other UK people use the word "broil" - and if they did, they would probably consider it closer to "boil" than "grill", just because of the sound.
Please pardon the delay in replying, I had to hunt around for a shop selling sackcloth and ashes. My post was ineptly worded. Your reply proves the point I intended to make - that NZ and UK English treat "broil" the same way. When I first saw the word, I had no idea what it meant, and assumed it was some sort of boiling. Then I came across it in contexts which suggested to me that it was more like grilling. As I was of the impression that "grill" is widely used in UK English, as it is here, I posted that "broil = grill." I hope this incident has shown why one should never ask me to write anything in which unambiguous clarity of meaning is critical.
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#11268
11/30/2000 9:16 PM
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no, tsuwm, my weekly treat is breakfast out, and my eggs are cooked on a flat grill. (as are the bacon rashers, and even muffins, (corn muffins, not english) are toasted on the grill. small coffee shops all have flat grills, and friers (for french fries) almost nothing is cooked in a pan. eggs, pancakes, hash browns, (potatoes), bacon, the whole lot is cooked on the grill.
under the grill is a slide out tray (a salamander) , it is used to melt cheese onto hamburger buns, and such, but its not a hot as the grill. In someplaces it is used to warm the plates!
broiling requires an open flame. either above or below. (wendy's "flame broiled" is redundant)
obviously, you're all too posh! never worked as waitressess or waiters in greasy spoons the whole lot of you.
and yes jo, pancake (sometime, but becoming archaic, Jonnycakes--a contraction of journey cakes) are breakfast food. jonny (or jonhie) cakes are made with corn meal (maize) and there are buttermilk pancakes, which are as scrumptious, but a different texture than, buttermilk biscuits. in the north,they are served with maple syrup.. center states fake maple syrup, in the south, corn syrup or molasses top them. dark corn syrup is very similar to treacle. many places add fruits or nuts to pancakes-- and good ones are still good when cold, and can be eaten out of hand, plain for a mid day snack. bad ones end up something like hard tack!
and i guess its true, there is no such thing as a London broil to be had in London! (my kids are veggan, so family holidays never included steak houses, or even pubs. No one wanted steak and kidney pie, or even micky d's!)
when i went to london children in tow, we ate curry several nights in row--so as not to (have a row)
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#11269
11/30/2000 9:39 PM
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wendy's "flame broiled" is redundantHa! The Rosetta Stone! Here in NZ, Wendy's® uses the slogan "flame grilled. As Clouseau might have said: "Case closèd!" 
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#11270
11/30/2000 11:55 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
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sackcloth and ashesNothing to forgive, Max  I was surprised, and a little disturbed, to think that Kiwis could veer from the Mother Tongue in such a fundamental fashion, given that I've been good friends (drunk lots) with many Kiwis and considered my knowledge of Kiwenglish passable. Hence a slight (unnecessary) tone of outrage..
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#11271
12/01/2000 9:41 AM
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Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Whilst looking up the name for those flat oblong things (griddles) that you can use to fry large quantities and make American pancakes, I found a fundamental difference between UK and US cookers. The kind of cooker/(stove?) that is usually found in a British home has a separate grill, usually above the oven with the food cooked under the heat in a "grill pan" (a two tier affair with a rack resting above an oblong metal tray, as described). I read that US cookers usually have an oven which doubles as a grill if only the top element is used. Just to complicate matters, in more modern/more expensive cookers the grill is slightly larger and can be used as a second oven. Some cheaper models have a combined single oven/grill AGAs and some range cookers do not have grills. See cookers at http://www.comet.co.uk for more pictures of fairly ordinary cookers than you may ever want to see. I couldn’t find an equivalent American site. As an aside I am always surprised that French holiday homes rarely have an oven, only a hob. Ovens are obviously not considered to be important.
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#11272
12/01/2000 9:46 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>when i went to london children in tow, we ate curry several nights in row
Very sensible too. Did you know that the top British dish is now Chicken Tikka Masala (coming to you direct from ... don't get started Shanks, I know that no such dish exists in India!)
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#11273
12/01/2000 10:12 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
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don't get started Shanks, I know that no such dish exists in India!I've long since got used to the notion that our national dish (in the UK) is best described, like the movies, as having been 'inspired by' Indian cooking!
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#11274
12/01/2000 12:24 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I don't know. I'll find out. I think I'm going to go with griddle. I've never seen one of the things called broilers, here but they may well exist. http://store.yahoo.com/bowery/gridbroil.html
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#11275
12/01/2000 4:00 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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a site with a picture of the most common type cooker in small restaurants: http://www.bigtray.com/catalog.asp!catid.10810.html a grill unfortunately, the pictures of salamanders are not available. Hobart is one of the leading companies for industrial food equipment-- at least in NY there might be others in other part of the country. a real restaurant, as opposed to a coffee shop/greasy spoon, might have something like this: http://www.chefsupplies.com/chef/item.cfm?Section=Equipment&SubSection=Cooking&Category=Ranges&ID=790080In US, we tend to have stoves, and or ranges, not cookers (and no one, but the very rich have anything like an AGA! ) http://geappliances.com/shop/prdct/ckng_gas/It has become trendy to have Restaurant type stoves, (which most small coffee shops would not have) with 6 to 8 "Burners" and in some case the burners can be covered with a griddle, or a broiler. Like above, but with out the 2" side grill. They also have salamanders, a drawer under the burners for "cooler broiling" good for toasting the top of a meringue on a pie, or creme bruile. (since the heating source is above the food, and heat tends to rise, it is not as hot.) Most US stove have a broiler area-- in electric stove it is the top oven heating element, in gas stoves its a drawer unit under the main oven. I have a "cook top" and separate wall oven with a "broiler drawer" below. (see ge site) gas or electric would depend on the area. NY is privileged to have the highest KWH rates for electric power in the country. It is rare to find electric stoves in the area.. Where gas is not piped in, householders use bottled propane gas. In other part of the country, electric stove/ranges are the norm. even BBQ-- you do that on a grill (often out of doors) but BBQ is it not just grilled food. a steak cooked on my grill is not BBQ'ed, its just grilled. BBQ food is also grilled, but , oh forget it.... BBQ mean something different in every state! i think Aussies use BBQ to do what we would call "grilling" one characteristic of BBQ is sauce-- sometimes as marinade, sometimes as poaching liquid, sometimes added while cooking. the sauce can be sweet, or tomato-y, or sour or smoky, but its always a bit spicy. every region has a different type sauce, and a different time to add the sauce, and different food that is most often BBQ'ed.. pork, beef, chicken, seafood, lamb, turkey.. all are BBQ'ed cooking (home cooking) doesn't seem like a specialize activity, but it seems there are different terms used in all parts of the world. appliances: Range/stove/cooker, hot tray, microwave, toaster oven, rotisserie, indoor electric grills, convection ovens... pots: sauce pans, saute pans, fry pans, pots, woks, bain maries, griddles, steamers, rice cookers, pressure cookers, electric kettles (just now becoming popular in US) gem pans (that one is almost archaic!) but M-W 10th knows what a gem is! other-- so use a colander or sieve? when you use a spatula is it plastic or metal; if metal, shaped like a wooden tongue depressor or shaped like a shovel? a recent house guest at my house couldn't figure out how to use my can opener-- and i have a simple hand cranked model...(standard issue in US)
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#11276
12/01/2000 4:21 PM
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#11277
12/01/2000 6:19 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Thanks Helena and Tsuwm, I'm much happier now!
I think that the restaurant stuff is fairly similar, Hobart is a common brand name - I think especially for their steam oven. Although I used to do the accounts for a small cafe when I worked in an Arts Centre, we didn't need any new equipment while I was there, so I never had reason to look through the suppliers catalogues.
I was interested to see the word range used for a cooker. We would only call something like an AGA (yes, they cost £3,000 new plus the re-inforced floor, so not for everyone, except in Joanna Trollope books) a range, although they now make double width electric and gas cookers and call the ranges (I suspect because it sounds more up-market). My grandmother called a cooker a stove, so it always makes me think of something from the 1950s. There is a cooker company called Stoves which is doing quite well at the moment, making ranges. Apart from that, the ranges and stoves shown don't look too dissimilar.
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#11278
12/01/2000 10:35 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>electric kettles (just now becoming popular in US)
This came as rather a shock to me as a young person, setting foot in a New York apartment for the first time. Arguably the most civilised place on the planet, yet how does one boil water? In a pan on the stove, very strange, I thought. How on earth does one make a cup of tea? Fortunately the lack of electric kettles soon dimmed in my memory. The thing I really remember .... was my bare foot encounter with the 4 inch roaches, en-route to the bathroom in the middle of the night. I loved the way they scuttled away as I turned on the light. "Ah - civilisation", I murmured to my crunchy but attentive audience as I calculated the cost bringing forward my return ticket to London by three months and twenty seven days.
In retrospect it was a good thing that I didn't, I may have met tsuwm battling his way through the diesel fumes in London!
Next instalment, the spiders of Queensland
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#11279
12/02/2000 3:20 AM
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In Québec we use only the word stove for what you call range/cooker.
The word cooker is only used in the description of a pot with an air-tight cover that quick-cooks food. It is called a pressure-cooker.
What is a HOB you speak of?
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#11280
12/02/2000 7:46 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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>What is a HOB you speak of?
Amazing isn't it. I think that we are entering the world of bread rolls and English as a local language. If someone talks about macroeconomic indicators, transcendental meditation or transubstantiation everyone knows what we’re talking about. The minute we get down to the gas or electric hotplate on the top of a stove, all our communication skills fail us!
The hob is the bit on top of the stove (or maybe recessed into the work-surface) that provides the heat for cooking.
The point about electric kettles is that when one is young, one assumes that everywhere is a bit the same. Travelling provides insight into life at home. It had never occurred to me that an electric kettle was a very British item, probably to do the fact that we have traditionally drunk more tea than coffee.
On the other hand … American fridges … wow!
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#11281
12/02/2000 9:00 PM
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Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
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Don't laugh. French Canadians call an electric kettle a duck (un canard). I assume it is because of the bill-like pouring spout.
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#11282
12/02/2000 11:21 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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What did you say in the yellow print?
My old eyes just turn it into a blur and it looks like a yellow line! Anyone else have trouble with yellow print? wow
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#11283
12/02/2000 11:25 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Sorry - old joke - just highlight it and you'll see, it's a bit like having invisible ink but I'll move on, I think.
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#11284
12/03/2000 12:08 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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belMarduk wrote: Don't laugh. French Canadians call an electric kettle a duck (un canard). I assume it is because of the bill-like pouring spout.
Here in NZ, we refer to cookers, stoves, ranges interchangeably. Hobs usually referred to the part of an open fireplace where you could put the kettle to boil. On electric ranges, we call the hot plate an "element", although old geezers may still use "hob". With gas cookers, I usually hear "putting something on the gas". But then we don't refer to petrol as gas (much) except when using American slang such as "step on the gas". It's no wonder English is such a hard language for foreigners to speak colloquially!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#11285
12/03/2000 2:59 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Never mind the colloquial ... just plain old pronunciation can do you in. "Did you eat" can become "jeweet" or even worse plain "jeet?".
In Hawaii you are likely to be asked "Howzit?"
In Northern New England there's an "insider" greeting :
"Do you think they'll have it?" The imagination displayed by the answer is critical! My favorite is : "Don't know but they just went down the road with the rope." Leaves room for even more speculation. wow.
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#11286
12/03/2000 6:15 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>old geezers may still use "hob"
I'm in good company then!
(Actually I think hob came back into use when they needed to find a word for the bit built into the work surface that contained the gas burners and electric elements, when they separated the cooker(stove) out and built the oven and grill(broiler) into the wall units, does that make sense to anyone except me - I doubt it)
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