#11287
12/03/2000 6:19 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Before we move off the subject (possibly for a very long time) - one last question.
Traditionally we had boiling and roasting chickens. I haven't seen a boiling chicken for years, I expect they used to be old stringy things but they don't bother selling them any more (except to chicken soup manufacturers).
I see references to "broiler chickens" on US web sites - judging from what has gone before these must be made to be grilled. So what do you call roasting chickens?
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#11288
12/03/2000 6:22 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>less grease with your meat
I forgot to say this sounds really unpleasant to me. I might grease a metal hinge but I certainly wouldn't want it near my food!
(We would let the fat drip through)
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#11289
12/03/2000 8:03 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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>I forgot to say this sounds really unpleasant to me. I might grease a metal hinge but I certainly wouldn't want it near my food! (We would let the fat drip through)
obviously, with one of those flat grills shown in the above links, there's no place for fat to drip. hamburgers and the like do fry in their own grease; excess grease is scraped with a spatula into a channel in front or back of the grill (but usually after the meat is done grilling).
joe (I was not a fry cook, but I worked the other side of a large plate glass window from one] friday
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#11290
12/03/2000 9:39 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>I might grease a metal hinge
No you've missed the point. I know that what you are saying is fine. We obviously use the word grease in different ways. I wouldn't associate the word grease with food, although we might talk about cleaning a greasy plate caused by the fat from the food. When I hear the word grease the first thing that would spring to mind would be removing thick black axle grease from an engine part, the next thing would be something like Vaseline or the grease that used to be used to slick back hair (as in the film). Hence my reaction to the idea of a hamburger frying in grease (even though I saw you use the Phrase "its own").
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#11291
12/04/2000 7:42 AM
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I'm coming to the conclusion that New Zealand English (lovingly known as "Zild") isn't English-based or Americanised, it's been damned well balkanised!
We use "grease" for all of the meanings mentioned above. Context sorts out the differences. After all, you may cook a burger patty in its own grease, but you sure as shootin' won't cook it in axle grease. Well you might, but I wouldn't. Quordlepleen may disagree ...
"Fat" and "grease" are interchangeable, but only up to a point. There are implications in both words which mean that in some cases you'd use "fat" or "grease" and at other times only "fat" or "grease".
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#11292
12/04/2000 11:27 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>Fat" and "grease" are interchangeable, but only up to a point.
So it would be OK to go on a low grease diet then?
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#11293
12/04/2000 5:09 PM
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So it would be OK to go on a low grease diet then?
Well, not unless you want to starve. Another, slang, use of "grease" in Zild (and probably other dialects of English) is to refer to fish and chips, although it's usually "greasies". The derviation is obvious!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#11294
12/04/2000 5:10 PM
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no... no... no... grease is what you get when you grill fat! 
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#11295
12/04/2000 5:35 PM
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, but you sure as shootin' won't cook it in axle grease. Well you might, but I wouldn't. Quordlepleen may disagree ...No dischord here! The last greasies I had (Thursday) may well have been cooked in axle grease - queasies would be nearer the mark. 
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#11296
12/04/2000 6:25 PM
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Traditionally we had boiling and roasting chickens. I haven't seen a boiling chicken for years, I expect they used to be old stringy things but they don't bother selling them any more (except to chicken soup manufacturers).
yes, it hard to find an old soup chicken any more this side of the pond too. broilers are small chickens, that are broiled (rather than roast) they have to be somewhat small to cook through before the outsides get burnt. a half chicken is a serving for a broiler, (sometimes a quarter). Julia Child in one of her cook books details sizes of fowl, from cornish game hens (not from cornwall, i suspect) to soup hens. I think she used the USDA (dept of agraculture) but i checked there site and couldn't find the info. broilers are usually (at least in NY) about 1 kilo, to less than 1.5 kilos (2.25 to 3.25 lbs) roasters are 2 or more kilos.
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#11297
12/04/2000 9:12 PM
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There are still boiling chickens here. They are the hens that are all layed out (don't correct me on layed…that’s how we say it and now now, no lewd comments from the gents!!) They are usually huge and quite inexpensive. They are also the only chickens that have a target-use printed on packaging. I expect we can *&!^ well do what we want with the other ones  tsuwm…but what about when you grill bacon. Is the stuff left over grease or fat? What about when it solidifies?
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#11298
12/04/2000 9:37 PM
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>but what about when you grill bacon. Is the stuff left over grease or fat? What about when it solidifies?
okay, by definition - grease is rendered (melted down) animal fat; when grease solidifies, voila, fat!
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#11299
12/05/2000 2:11 PM
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veteran
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okay, by definition - grease is rendered (melted down) animal fat; when grease solidifies, voila, fat!Ah hah! We'd call (food) grease "oil", then. Surely you don't fry things in "cooking grease"?? (or "olive grease", "corn grease", "groundnut/peanut grease"...)
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#11300
12/05/2000 2:25 PM
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okay, by definition - grease is rendered (melted down) animal fat; when grease solidifies, voila, fat!
Ah hah! We'd call (food) grease "oil", then.
Surely you don't fry things in "cooking grease"??
(or "olive grease", "corn grease", "groundnut/peanut grease"...)
No of course not, once its solid its fat (and yes you can by chicken fat in a little package in NY grocery stores.)
but olive and peanut never solidify-- they are oil. Olive oil, corn oil, and you would grease the pan with butter or lard before cooking (say a cake). and other instructions might say "drain of all the grease/pan dripping except 2 tablespoons full, add flour... for making a roux.
Vegetable oils advertize that food cooked in their oil doesn't taste greasy.
in a pinch, i have used "crisco" a brand of solid vegetable shortening (solid oil!) as a grease. the main bearing failed on my concrete mixer in the middle of job, and a improvised with a large brass washer and some crisco!
i did mention i was--past tense--once married?.... Not any more.
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#11301
12/05/2000 2:54 PM
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you would grease the pan with butter or lard before cooking
Likewise, Helen, but that's a verb.
Vegetable oils advertize that food cooked in their oil doesn't taste greasy.
Likewise, but that's an adjective.
i have used "crisco" a brand of solid vegetable shortening (solid oil!)
Yes, we have solidified oils, but we would probably call them "lard" (or just "fat").
I suppose we fail to distinguish between oils that can solidify ("grease" to you) and oils that don't (and therefore remain "oil" to you).
Weird, isn't it? All these things we take for granted, and that are just so everyday we can't imagine any different kind of perception/language.
P.S. We'd talk about draining of all the fat or oil except x spoonfuls, though we do talk about "dripping". You used to be able to buy beef dripping, in fact, and it served as a quick snack spread on a slice of bread.
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#11302
12/05/2000 3:00 PM
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>>you would grease the pan with butter or lard before cooking >Likewise, Helen, but that's a verb. well, what noun do you suppose that verb was verbed from?? 
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#11303
12/05/2000 3:12 PM
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>>you would grease the pan with butter or lard before cooking
>Likewise, Helen, but that's a verb.
well, what noun do you suppose that verb was verbed from??
'Tis true, tsuwm. We'd grease axles as well as pans. But grease as a noun would only apply to mechanisms for us.
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#11304
12/05/2000 3:40 PM
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Beef dripping? my mother used to wax about wonderful breakfasts of "fried bread" --bread fried in bacon drippings. but i don't think most people in US would use drippings for bacon grease-- drippings are what you get from a roast (leg of lamb, beef, turkey).
( i grew up hearing drippings used for both bacon and roasts, but I don't think most in US would use the same word for both. Drippings are desireable, bacon fat is grease. But i could be wrong. I grew up hearing the words used interchangably but I don't think they are.)
and in ny, there is a ethic treat, the crispy bits of skin and stuff that get strained out from schmalz-- kosher rendered chicken fat. the favorite or best behaved child would get all the crunchy stuff, bits of derma and meat. Now every one is health conscious, and no one admits to eating such foods.
Schmaltz was used as an alternative to butter for meat meal, since food laws prohibitted mixing dairy food with meat.
and yes greasy is an adjective, but the point is, greasy is a word used with food-- not just axels--come to think of it, i get my car "lubed" not greased.
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#11305
12/05/2000 9:12 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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I sent this thread to the Vegetarianism Promotion Board, who have/has expressed their/its sincere thanks. Please watch out for the forthcoming ad campaign.
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#11306
12/06/2000 8:21 AM
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In reply to:
The kind of cooker/(stove?) that is usually found in a British home has a separate grill, usually above the oven with the food cooked under the heat in a "grill pan" (a two tier affair with a rack resting above an oblong metal tray, as described). I read that US cookers usually have an oven which doubles as a grill if only the top element is used.
How on earth do Americans make cheese on toast (aka Welsh rabbit/rarebit)? Surely they don't make it in the oven. it would make such a simple snack far too much trouble.
Bingley
Bingley
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#11307
12/06/2000 1:47 PM
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My Grandmother said "drippings" as mentioned here although she was third generation in USA. My Mother said "drippings" only when she meant the residue that would be used for another cooking procedure. I say "drippings" for the bits left in the pan when I'm making gravy for turkey. So perhaps it's a generational difference as well as Mother County - Colonies thing?
As to rarebit I make mine in a double boiler to prevent scorching.
When a child, I heard rabbit for rarebit! I was appalled anyone would eat a lovely soft cuddly rabbit. I wondered if perhaps Welsh rabbits were not as darling as American rabbits and easier to justify killing. The thoughts that run through a child's mind often remind me of a routine by Robin Williams.
Now, as to quail on toast... wow
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#11308
12/06/2000 1:52 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
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When a child, I heard rabbit for rarebit!Pretty good, since that's the way it's pronounced. Contaxt is everything, eh?
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#11309
12/06/2000 1:56 PM
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that's the way it's pronounced
Interesting, shanks - not in my childhood. It was given a value somewhere between rabbit and rare-bit.
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#11310
12/06/2000 2:01 PM
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What? and risk nightmares?
Actually two ways:
Most people butter one side of two slices of bread. They assemble it as sandwich, with the buttered side out,cheese in the middle and cook in fry/frying/saute pan (or on a flat griddle, or in a sandwich maker) and "toast" flipping it over to cook both sides. It is called amazingly enough--grilled cheese (sandwich) It can be fancied up with bacon, or tomatoes. It is most commonly made with the "plastic" processed American cheese.
For an open face (one slice of bread) sandwich, we'd use a toaster oven. but then it would be a melt-- as in a Tuna melt-- bread with tuna salad, (tuna, chopped veggies and mayo) a slice of tomato, and cheese on top.
There are other melts, but I think tuna is the most common.
A toaster oven would toast the underside of the sandwich (bread) and at the same time melt the cheese.
A toaster oven is about the size of bread box, and it's close to being the #1 appliance in states. i'll look for a site with an picture since Jo didn't have a clue what a toaster oven was. Either it's very american or goes by an other name elsewhere. (and welsh rabbit -- what do they call melted cheese sandwiches in Wales?)
An american cheese sandwiches are really goo-ey cheese encased in two slice of bread. They are not really melted cheese (a la fondue) poured over toast (points) which is how welsh rabbit is portrayed in american cookbooks.
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#11311
12/06/2000 2:26 PM
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But grease as a noun would only apply to mechanisms for us
Just backtracking here a bit, fisk - because re-reading your post has got me (half-)remembering the Shakespeare line about "Greasy Joan doth keel the pot..". Can't get much more this second, apart from Marion's nose being red and raw - but I realised this stuck way back in childhood for me as an image of grease = yuk for food. Of such fragments whole language edifices are built...?
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#11312
12/06/2000 5:37 PM
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veteran
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I believe the "stuff strained out" of schmalz is called gribeness (all short vowels), which, like schmalz, is a Yiddish word, which opens up a whole new world to explore. There are lots of Yiddish words and expressions used in US English by Goyim as well as Jews.
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#11313
12/06/2000 5:49 PM
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Chickens in the USA are quite different from what they were not very long ago. In fact, the universal use of the word chicken and no other for that genus of poultry is new; you used to hear "hen" a good bit, but no more. In the olden days (up to maybe 25 years ago) you could still buy, cheap, a "stewing hen", an old one which had outlived its usefulness as a layer and which would be tough and scrawny, therefore sold to be stewed. They have totally disappeared now. When you go to the market now, you have a choice of a roaster, which is usually 4 to 7 lbs. in weight; and a broiler, which is a younger bird and smaller, maybe 2 to 4 lbs. Of course, they keep getting bigger and bigger. Back in the 70's, when we had 3 sons to feed and wanted a 6 lb. fowl, we had to buy a capon.
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#11314
12/06/2000 6:25 PM
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I believe the "stuff strained out" of schmalz is called gribeness i think your right-- it was a food i knew of, but never had... (it was too much of "family treat") my Jewish friend where appalled at my eating habits– so much trayf! in our house, the best dinners were roast of beef, and "please can I have some of the blood" the juices that drained from the rare cooked meat were the best treat! needless to say such an request would not have played well in the jewish deli– the only delis that sometimes had a fresh hot, roast of beed to slice for a sandwich. one had to go to the German deli for rare roast beef as a "cold cut" but the didn't deli's didn't serve the blood, cold meat didn't offer any.(still rare meat is juicier than well done meat) The Italian deli's cooked the beef well done too, and spiced it.-- not how i wanted it! Jewish friends could understand that I had no injunction against pork– but blood!   I was at a bar (a good Irish bar) for a party, and as the waiter sliced the roast, I looked about and asked "do you have a spoon, can you server me some of the blood?" The waiter looked up, saw my blue eyes, rosy cheeks and pug nose, and said "ah an irish lass!" ( he also kindly found a spoon.. it wasn't that long ago, and "Lass" is a real stretch!) I learned a good deal of culture and geography from local store keepers. Luckily, my neighborhood had a wonderful ethnic mix– bakeries as well as deli's came in ethnic varieties, only more– Greek and French as well as Italian and Jewish. the french made the best butter pastries, the italian's had wonderful things with nuts and cremes made with cheese, but you went to the jewish bakery for bread.. Prejudice in our house was directed to styles of cooking–"buy some bread– but don't go to the italian bakery– their bread is no good!" all the shops decorated the wall of their shops with maps, and pictures of their homelands. Or had special treats for saints days I had never heard of or holidays I didn't know of– Purim is still "hamintashes" to me– It was a wonderful education– not only is all my taste in my mouth– but half my education came that way!
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#11315
12/06/2000 7:27 PM
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My lifelong love affair with good food has a precise beginning. My family background is Pennsylvania Dutch (i.e., German) on both sides. I grew up in Harrisburg PA during the 1940's and early 50's. Our diet was the typical Germanic meat and potatoes one with occasional forays into fancy items like canned asparagus (ugh). Harrisburg was an unbelievably provincial place then; everybody we knew was just like us, and we knew no Catholics, Jews, coloreds, or any other ethnicities. My parents, however, were pretty open-minded; they just didn't get any opportunities to try meeting new people, my mother having plenty to do with a slew of children. My father, since he worked for the railroad, did meet a lot of different people.
One evening, I guess around 1945, he came home and announced that we were having company for dinner; that they were Italian, and that they were going to bring food and cook it for us. Dolores and Sam, God bless them, arrived with the makings of a traditional antipasto, which was promptly laid out in intricate detail on a large platter, and knocked our socks off, since we had never imagined that food could be a delight to the eye as well as to the palate. But the tour de force was spaghetti and meatballs. When I tasted it, I thought I had died and gone to heaven. There had never been anything so delicious. And different -- we had never before eaten anything made from cooked tomatoes, we only ate tomatoes raw. Spaghetti and meatballs is now considered hopelessly old-fashioned and fake Italian, but I don't care -- 50 years later it's still my #1 favorite meal. From then, I've been trying out every cuisine and ethnic food imaginable and have had a wonderful time doing it, even if I have to sacrifice to get the lard off every so often. At the same time, I still have a fondness for Pa.Dutch foods as well, although they are getting harder all the time to get and making them yourself is a pain.
I also recall vividly the evening in 1956, after we had moved to Bucks County PA, my father taking us all for a ride to the Italian section of Trenton NJ to try out a new food which we had never heard of but which was then all the rage, called a "tomato pie". We couldn't imagine a pie made with tomatoes, but when we tried it, we liked it very much. It later became known as a "pizza."
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#11316
12/06/2000 9:33 PM
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somewhere between rabbit and rare-bit
The story as I got it was that it was called Welsh rabbit because the Welsh were too poor to afford real rabbit. This was a joke since the standard method of getting (not cooking) rabbit would be to poach it. The rarebit variation would be from a misunderstanding of the joke. Since there is no rabbit in the dish it couldn't be Welsh rabbit and must have been rarebit misheard. In my youth it was a cheese/egg mixture scrambled and served over toast. The classic recipe uses beer but we were a largely non-drinking household.
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#11317
12/07/2000 1:27 PM
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It later became known as a "pizza."I remember my first experience of Trenton NJ pizza like it was yesterday. I had been working since 4am, and it was now 3pm, so at the counter we chose our selection of topping, and from a small illustration figured we were hungry enough to manage the 'large' size, 1 each. They served this absolutely delicious thing the size of a cartwheel!
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#11318
12/07/2000 9:56 PM
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Ahh, Mav, we are dating ourselves. I remember large pizzas too. When large meant more that a 1 and 1/2 foot diameter. They don't make them like that anymore.
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#11319
12/08/2000 4:30 AM
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of troy, your version of welsh rabbit sounds much more complicated than what we used to have. Toast one side of the bread in the grill pan. Turn the bread over and put on strips of cheddar, and then put it back under the grill and wait for the cheese to melt.
Bingley
Bingley
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#11320
12/08/2000 11:50 AM
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dating oursleves
True, bel. With the rampant inflation that marketing has foisted upon us, to describe the 'large' portion as anything less than titanic would now be understatement!
But Mr B, methinks you confuse Welsh Rarebit with simple Toasted Cheese, the which were not the same.
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#11321
12/08/2000 1:38 PM
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Here's my recipe for Welsh Rarebit Toast some bread on one side in a toaster-oven or under broiler. Assemble : 1 tablespoon butter 1/2 pound mild soft cheese cut in small pieces 1/4 teaspoon salt 1/4 teaspoon mustard 1/3 to 1/2 cup ale or lager beer one egg -- slightly beaten Put butter in a chafing dish (or double boiler) When butter is melted add cheese and seasoning. As cheese melts add ale/lager very slowly then the lightly beaten egg. Pour melted rarebit on the UNtoasted side of the bread and serve. A lovely late night snack! Rarebit may also be made without the beer but you need other ingredients. If you want that recipe then let me know. wow
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#11322
12/08/2000 2:45 PM
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No! NY and northern NJ pizza is still 15 to 18 inches in diameter. Pizza hut and other chains don't have them that way, but NY pizzeria do.. I don't know about Trenton, but i expect they still have this style. you can even get them that way in southern NJ, just out side of Philly.
One pizza is cut into 6 or 8 slices, and sold by the slice Two slices is a lunch special--$3. near where i work (right next to NY city call and civic center)
I still remember my first slice too, in the Arther Avenue section of the bronx, 15 cents bought a slice and a 8 oz fountain soda. It was heaven! the best part, was it was a meat free food! it very quickly became our favorite food on "fast days"--when we couldn't eat meat.
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#11323
12/08/2000 3:37 PM
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In reply to:
portion inflation
You are so right about inflation of at least the descriptions of portions etc. This brings to mind the delicious description jumbo shrimp, which is now so common that nobody recognizes it as an oxymoron any more.
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#11324
12/08/2000 6:39 PM
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jumbo shrimp, which is now so common that nobody recognizes it as an oxymoron...BSE gets everywhere, doesn't it!
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#11325
12/09/2000 4:42 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
In reply to:
But Mr B, methinks you confuse Welsh Rarebit with simple Toasted Cheese, the which were not the same.
They were in our house. I obviously had a deprived childhood. Though if it has to involve beer to be Welsh Rarebit, perhaps not.
Bingley
Bingley
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#11326
12/09/2000 1:10 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439 |
Hi Bingley,
Welsh Rarebit may be made without beer and it is equally delish. If you want that recipe, send me a private and I will send recipe, also private, to avoid boring others.
RE BIG PIZZA : I have just discovered a local spot where New York Pizza, HUGE with thin crust, is being made and sold. And joy of joys for single folk they also sell pizza-by-the-slice. Oh frabjus joy!
wow
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