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I know that there are a few here from the subcontinent, and I need your help. I have been looking for a good site on Indian English to add to my References page. During the search, I found a page that contained something I would like to hear your views on: Urdu, which is mostly the same language as Hindi, but written in Arabic instead of Devanagari letters, and with Arabic and Persian loanwords instead of Sanskrit, is the single largest language in Pakistan. I have read elsewhere that Urdu (the language taught at my Dad's boarding school), is the official language of Pakistan, but not the largest, being spoken only by a smallish minority, the social elite there, and that Punjabi probably has the most speakers in Pakistan. The page, at http://snurl.com/1xg6 has some good information, but I want to be sure that I don't point to a page containing basic factual errors. My experience of the way in which outsiders get Trans-Tasman English wrong makes me very keen to get links on subcontinental English from those who live there, if at all possible. Thanks
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Max, to the best of my knowledge, your information on Urdu in Pakistan is right. Pakistan is possibly the *only nation created in the twentieth century (maybe even history), on purely religious grounds. This country was founded on the basis of religion, not ethnicity/ race or culture and as such, there was nothing to do but use the language of Islam and its followers in the region, Urdu, as the national language, even if it was not spoken by the majority.
As regards, Punjabi; Punjab was partitioned in 1947, into an Indian half and a Pakistani half. Both countries therefore, have regions that are contiguous across the international border, called the Punjab in their respective lands. The Punjab in India is a state that has Punjabi as the official language and this is written in a script called, Gurmukhi. Punjabi in Pakistan is written in Urdu and the script is called, Shahmukhi.
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Thanks for confirming that, maahey. I shall continue to search for some good links on subcontinental English - with Bangalore fast becoming the world's helpdesk, we had better get familiar with it. 
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Thanks for your input, maahey! I have a question: Wasn't Israel also (re-)founded for purely religious reasons?
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I just read the link, Max, and here's what I think:
1. There is considerable confusion about Hindi being the 'national' language of India. It is spoken by the majority, but the Constitution recognises at least 18 'official' languages. English and Hindi are the two most commonly used languages; the former is the medium of instruction in most schools in a sizeable majority of urban and semi-urban areas and, also serves as an administrative and otherewise, link language.
2. Almost everyone (*everyone!!), in India speaks more than one language. In the South, that usually is three or four, because of the proximity of four states each with their own distinct language (Tamil, Telugu, Kannada and Malayalam). Almost everyone in the South (the urban/semi-urban South)can speak at least two of the above languages, in addition to English and a decent enough Hindi. The three language policy exists in different states in India, whereby, children learn three languages,- English, Hindi and a regional language in schools. In some states it is two, English and the regional language; Tamil Nadu is one such. But even here, schools that come under the central board learn Hindi. Hindi has made substantial inroads into the South, even if there had been strong opposition in the sixties to its 'imposition' on the local population.
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Thanks again, maahey. I had reservations about the accuracy of that page, which is I posted the link here, to get opinions from those in the know, like you. I had not added to my list, and will not now do so. I want the links on my page to be as pukka as possible. :)
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Wasn't Israel also (re-)founded for purely religious reasons?AnnaS, I was thinking of the very same thing while writing the post! There is a difference though between Pakistan and Israel; Israel does have historical/ cultural/ religious connections with the land, which makes their return to the Middle East, a little more than the ludicrous notion of creating a state based on a religion. Also, the land was 'settled' by the Jews, (some of it 'bought' from the local Arabs), whereas, Paksitan was *partitioned off from India. The result is a multi- ethnic population whose only common point of interest is that the majority practices Islam. The irony is that the land was partitoned off to create a purely Muslim nation, whilst today, more Muslims live in India than in Pakistan, which makes the entire exercise of separation, somewhat redundant and robs Pakistan of its raison d'etre.
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>The irony is that the land was partitoned off to create a purely Muslim nation, whilst today, more Muslims live in India than in Pakistan, which makes the entire exercise of separation, somewhat redundant and robs Pakistan of its raison d'etre.
It is not only ironic, but possibly counter-productive. I read an interesting opinion piece once that examined ways in which the subcontinent's Mslim community might have been strengthened and its political effectiveness increased had Partition not happened. (Of course, had Partition not happened, I wouldn't be here, or was that another one of the pluses?)
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AsP, I wouldn't say that Israel was founded for religious reasons. I believe that Theodore Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism, wasn't religious. He didn't even insist on having Eretz Israel for the Jews' nation; he would have been just as glad to take Madagascar (as was, I beleive at one time proposed) for the Jewish territory. The main thing was that there should be a sovereign territory for Jews to occupy as an independent nation. Further, I don't believe any of the "founding fathers" of modern Israel, like Ben Gurion, Meir, etc. were religious.
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Yep, I've never been altogether sure that the Jews were all that terribly happy with "next year in Jerusalem" turning out to be 1948. While it is their ancestral homeland it has a number of major drawbacks. Like having no natural resources, being somewhat over-populated with "latecomers", being too small and having rather unfriendly neighbours.
A bit like England, really ...
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These nations were certainly not founded on secular principles. Jews migrated to Israel and Muslims to Pakistan, not Christians or Hindus. I was only trying to point out that religion, whilst it was a factor, was not the the *only one in Israel's birth; whilst it was in Pakistan's. Jinnah, the founding father of Pakistan, was not a deeply religious man at all. He, in fact, wanted to create a modern democratic state, but, his plans were rapidly undone by ill health and the politics of religon. Ethnic migrations are a complex, messy business with tremendous unhappiness for both the migrant population and the dislocated locals.
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>Ethnic migrations are a complex, messy business with tremendous unhappiness for both the migrant population and the dislocated locals. Indeed, and some of the locals got very dislocated, ending up 13,000 km from home.
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Pooh-Bah
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Indeed, and some of the locals got very dislocated, ending up 13,000 km from home.
Say, your real name ain't Chief White Halfoat, is it, by any chance?
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Max, is this site, or any of its links, useful to you? (apologies if you've already got any of these up... my connection is so slow right now I figured I'd just go ahead and post it without checking your reference page first) http://www.pakdata.com/alif/index.php
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Thanks, ASp. I'll hang to that one, for wenn (I wish English had this word) the need arises. Cheers.
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If I may be forgiven for getting back to the original subject of this thread, I thought, Max, that I could get some answers for you from one of the many Pakistanis who staff gas stations and convenience stores.
So this evening I went to the 7-11 store (a convenience store, part of a national chain) which is staffed by a number of guys whom I take for Pakistanis. But when I asked the most voluble one if he and the others are Pakistani, he replied they are Egyptian, which took me very much by surprise.
I then proceeded to the gas station where there is a very friendly and personable young man who works as cashier and whom I took for a Pakistani. I started by asking him if he is Pakistani and to my amazement, he told me he is Nepali. First time I have ever met a Nepali or even heard that there were any in the U.S. We had a nice conversation in the course of which I learned that Nepalis speak Nepali, which is very similar to Hindi and Punjabi (which are similar to each other). He can manage those languages since they are close to Nepali. He told me that the official and most widely used language of Pakistan is Urdu, which he can partly understand since it's similar to Punjabi, but he can't read it because he doesn't know the alphabet used for Urdu. Nepalis, incidentally, are mostly Buddhists although many are of the Hindu religion. There are almost no Muslims in Nepal.
So if I want a definitive answer from a native, I have to keep looking for a Pakistani.
But I did learn something rather embarassing and humbling: people's appearance or the way they speak English are not reliable guides to their ethnicity. Those whom I took for Pakistanis turned out to be Egyptians and Nepali. Now I have to find out about the people at the other gas station who, I bet, will turn out to be Indian instead of Pakistani.
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First time I have ever met a Nepali or even heard that there were any in the U.S. We had a nice conversation in the course of which I learned that Nepalis speak Nepali, which is very similar to Hindi and Punjabi (which are similar to each other). He can manage those languages since they are close to Nepali. He told me that the official and most widely used language of Pakistan is Urdu, which he can partly understand since it's similar to Punjabi, but he can't read it because he doesn't know the alphabet used for Urdu.
As it happens, I met my first Nepalese family at church on Sunday. As to the Nepalese man you spoke with, I am now quite convinced that he is half right - Urdu (a sort of lingua franca, like Swahili in Africa) is the official language of Pakistan. It is not, however, the most widely spoken, being the mother tongue of comparatively few people. Ismail Merchant is a native Urdu speaker, and many of his solo films have been in, and about Urdu. Urdu is written in the Arabic alphabet, IIRC.
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