#10874
11/21/2000 7:41 AM
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I recently solicited the opinions of a group of clergy on an issue. About 36 responded and, to my amazement, eight used the same colloquial phrase to express their sense of the relative importance of the issue: "This is not a trench in which I am prepared to die" -- or words to that effect.
Where did this phrase originate? In the trench warfare of the First World War? If so, how did it gain currency?
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#10875
11/21/2000 11:04 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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>"This is not a trench in which I am prepared to die"
I've not heard it before but I would suspect that your First World War hunch is right. They were such terrible places and so many young lives were lost by all sides.
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#10876
11/21/2000 11:16 AM
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old hand
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I've heard it said "there are no atheists in trenches". This usually, I'm told, refers to the notion that everybody becomes a believer in the face of death. My own interpretation is that the atheists are too clever to get themselves into that situation in the first place!
cheer
the sunshine (happy atheist) warrior
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#10877
11/21/2000 11:55 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>the atheists are too clever to get themselves into that situation in the first place!
So all athiests are pacifists then?
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#10878
11/21/2000 12:02 PM
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So all athiests are pacifists then?
Nah. They're just more likely to be the Generals 100 miles behind the front line, urging the young Wilfred Owenses on to greater deeds of valour and martyrdom, whilst savouring the interesting vintage from Armagnac this year...
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#10879
11/21/2000 12:16 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>whilst savouring the interesting vintage from Armagnac this year Ah yes, that would be the aristocracy - you don't think they'd prefer a 1916 Somme then? By the way I found this interesting site about the first world war battlefields, http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~calong/print.somann.html. Please feel free to post an equivalent site from the "other side", if anyone feels strongly enough, I don't think the poor Germans in the trenches had a great time, either.
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#10880
11/21/2000 3:07 PM
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the more interesting question is how did this phrase gain currency. it seems likely that there must be some piece of writing or speechifying to which a large portion of these clergy have been exposed to fairly recently. could you go back to them and ask?
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#10881
11/21/2000 5:04 PM
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I shot a note to my ordained correspondents, inquiring as to the source of the phrase which so many had used in common. One of them provided a key. Many of the clergy in the Diocese of Olympia (the Episcopal Church in Western Washington) are graduates of Church Divinity School of the Pacific in Berkeley, California. The Rev. Dr. Louis Weil was professor there for an aeon and, according to one correspondent, loved and used this phrase repeatedly. Perhaps he is the font from which its currency among Anglican clergy in Western Washington springs. Do I win a Pulitzer or an honorary doctorate for discovering this?
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#10882
11/21/2000 9:44 PM
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How about an "AWADIE" Father Steve?
This is not a trench in which I am prepared to die I think this expression is brilliant! And doesn’t the converse This is a trench in which I am prepared to die stunningly portray that one moment when you decide that "this is it, this is where I make a stand. Live free or die".
Consider it part of my lexicon from here on in.
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#10883
11/22/2000 8:23 AM
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In a time when many church leaders are worried about the "thinning of their ranks", I am struck by the fact that many of them resort to military and marketing metaphors. I can't help but find it strange, to say the least.
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#10884
11/22/2000 8:44 AM
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Perhaps these clerics were imitating the example of Saint Paul in Ephesians 6:13-16, to wit:
"Therefore take the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having girded your loins with truth, and having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
and having shod your feet with the equipment of the gospel of peace; besides all these, taking the shield of faith, with which you can quench all the flaming darts of the evil one. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."
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#10885
11/22/2000 8:45 AM
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Werner
I'm not sure you should be talking of 'thinning ranks' to an Episcopal Vicar!
Also, is the apparent use of military language confined to this period? When did 'Onward Christian Soldiers' arise? Wasn't The Pilgrim's Progress full of military images ("Appollyon straddling the way" and all). Isn't the Old Testament primarily about military/political manoeuvring? Isn't the 'kingdom' of heaven a political image already?
Or is this symptomatic of the notion that religious institutions, like most others, continuously harks back to a putative 'golden age', and always sees itself as beseiged in the present?
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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#10886
11/22/2000 2:31 PM
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>"this is it, this is where I make a stand. Live free or die".
belM:
I worked quite closely with military officers for several years. I heard occasionally that "this is not an issue I'd fall on my sword for." Never once did I hear any officer say he or she would fall on a sword.
Perhaps even more telling was the phrase, "I don't want to be the long pole in the tent." Translation: I want to go through my career without being noticed.
Sad. I have always reveled in being noticed, making waves, making a mark. But that's not what's being taught in our military academies (and I suspect elsewhere.)
Ted
TEd
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#10887
11/23/2000 3:08 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
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veteran
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veteran
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Never once did I hear any officer say he or she would fall on a sword.
TEd, falling on your sword is something you do when you've lost dreadfully and don't want the enemy to take you alive, isn't it? In which case, it's not a possibility you'd gladly admit, and definitely not a statement of pride, even for individualists.
I think belM's "This is a trench in which I'd be prepared to die" works pretty well. I'll try to remember to use it some time!
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#10888
11/24/2000 1:13 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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St Paul use this sort of imagery all the time, though. There is another, similar passage (Can't remember whence it came - don't keep a bible by my office desk) that starts, "And finally, my bretheren, be strong in the Lord ..." and goes on to talk about putting on "the whole armour of God."
And a favourite Methodist Minister of mine published a whole series of pamphlets entitled, The Helmet:, and The Shield: The Breastplate: which were trenchant diatribes against the iniquities of the government of the day.
I understand that the use of military metaphor is inspired, originally, in the eternal fight against Satan and all his works - that it should spill over into more mundane battles is understandable.
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#10889
11/24/2000 1:15 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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of 'thinning ranks'
Maybe we could call on Shona to start "finning the ranks"?
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#10890
11/24/2000 3:00 PM
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veteran
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veteran
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call on Shona to start "finning the ranks"
Nah, it's Misery to be anybody's Number One Fan.
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#10891
11/24/2000 3:02 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Do I understand rightly from this that you would rather be fanning the rinks?
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#10892
11/24/2000 3:21 PM
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veteran
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veteran
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rather be fanning the rinks?Surely they're not melting in these conditions? But to recap, if finning don't mean fanning then it sounds decidedly rude to me.  Cold Fish
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#10893
11/24/2000 3:47 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Not half so rude as it would have sounded if, in addition to not sounding my "th" properly, I was like Roy Jenkins, and sounded my "r" as "w." I had a colleague in the Trades Unions who had this problem. To his eternal credit he didn't let it stand in his way, and he was an enthusiastic public speaker. But nobody could prevent him from talking about the rank and file of the labour movement! 
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#10894
11/25/2000 2:01 AM
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Consider it part of my lexicon from here on in.
Verrry interrrestink, bel! I would say: "from here on out." How about the rest of y'all?
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#10895
11/25/2000 6:56 AM
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I don't think I'd go in or out, but just say "from now on".
Bingley
Bingley
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#10896
11/25/2000 9:00 PM
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wseiber writes: "In a time when many church leaders are worried about the "thinning of their ranks", I am struck by the fact that many of them resort to military and marketing metaphors."
And the mildly-musicological vicar responds: I'm thinking of some hymns like "Onward Christian Soldiers" and "Fight the Good Fight with All Thy Might" which have some bearing on this issue.
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#10897
11/25/2000 10:31 PM
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You must be young. The saying is "there are no athiests in foxholes" and gained currency during World War II. At the time we were told it was a quote . The story was that a combat Chaplain made the original statement... perhaps he'd heard the "trenches" saying and mimicked it....or it could be that great minds do think in the same channels.
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#10898
11/26/2000 9:20 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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I don't think I'd go in or out, but just say "from now on".
I'd probably go with the "from now on" as well, but I'm certainly comfortable with "from here on in" through hearing it frequently and using it occasionally myself. Never "from here on out"!
I will admit, though, that the "on in" makes an awkward construction, and I wonder whence it came. "From here on in"to what or where? To me it implies that the rest of the journey (through time, through life?) is in the "inward" direction (towards home?) rather than "going out" into the unknown, into uncharted waters, which seems more applicable to life.
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#10899
11/26/2000 9:44 PM
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Could "here on in" relate to : "Boring in" or "in to the heart of the problem?" I've always used the "in" version. I feel it's too late to try and change so old a habit. So from now on I'll keep to from here on in.
WOW
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#10901
11/27/2000 7:01 AM
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Hi Father Steve,
Since you accorded me the honor of responding twice to my message by quoting rather old texts (of which there are scores, starting with the Old Testament), I should like to clarify that, for some time after WW2, I had hoped that this sort of metaphorics would be superseded by stronger emphasis on peace.
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#10902
11/27/2000 8:42 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>superseded by stronger emphasis on peace
I think that this is largely true, in the rather left-wing Catholic schools of my youth (sadly, maybe not so left-wing these days), we sang very few of the old standards like "Onward Christian Soldiers" and many more of the modern hymns/songs like "Morning has Broken". We were much more interested in learning about the liberation theologies of Latin America, world religions and trying to make a positive contribution to world poverty (although population control was always a tricky discussion). I'm sure there's another place to discuss all this stuff but I agree, let the world focus on building peace not harping back to war.
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#10903
11/27/2000 10:11 AM
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You must be young. The saying is "there are no athiests in foxholes"You are right, of course. It shows how little bellicose I am that I happilly conflated trenches and foxholes. And whilst we usually consider it bad manners to point out typos etc on this board, "athiest" for "atheist" is one of my pet aversions, and I can only hope it was genuinely a printer's devil...(since you spoke of hot type...)
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#10904
11/27/2000 6:53 PM
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>
TEd, falling on your sword is something you do when you've lost dreadfully and don't want the enemy to take you alive, isn't it? In which case, it's not a possibility you'd gladly admit, and definitely not a statement of pride, even for individualists.
These people were using it in a different context, though I agree with you as to its origin. What they are really saying is they would not confront a superior officer on such an issue since it would be the career equivalent of falling on one's own sword, even if one is correct! "General Lee, sending Pickett to attack Meade on Seminary Ridge is the WRONG way to do it. Instead you should..." Might as well poison yourself. Proving once again that one man's Meade is another man's poison.
In the military there are apparently NO issues on which one is willing to risk his or her career.
TEd
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#10905
11/28/2000 2:51 AM
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wsieber raises an excellent point when he underscores the hope for peace as an important tenet of Christian doctrine. The Church has wrestled for all its life with the issue of how one best gets there.
Older than the hymns which I quoted is the thinking of Saint Augustine of Hippo in The City of God, Book XIX, and of Saint Thomas Aquinas in the Summa Theologica, Part II, Question 40. These two great Doctors of the Church are often quoted in support of the "Just War Theory."
The theory suggests that the Church must champion peace and support only those wars which (1) have just cause, (2) are declared by proper authority, (3) possess right intention, (4) have a reasonable probability of success and (5) support an end proportional to the means employed. Aquinas said "Those who wage war justly aim at peace, and so they are not opposed to peace."
I suspect that many late-20th Century Christians are embarrassed by the bellicose imagery in hymns. A classic prayer for the newly baptised in the 1662 English Book of Common Prayer asks that he/she/they "manfully ... fight under [Christ's] banner ... and continue Christ's faithful soldier and servant unto ... his/her/their life's end."
The First and Second World Wars brought the horrors of war so vividly to consciousness that many Christian people were inclined to narrow the scope of those just wars which the Church ought condone.
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#10906
11/28/2000 11:28 AM
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The First and Second World Wars brought the horrors of war so vividly to consciousness that many Christian people were inclined to narrow the scope of those just wars
which the Church ought condone.
I should think that many wars that took place earlier than this brought the horror home--literally in too many cases.
Though certainly nothing ever matched the destructive power of the atom bombs we dropped on Japan.
There were wars in which brothers fought on opposite sides.
I believe our Civil War had more casualties than any other
(in which the U.S. was involved). Battles have to take place somewhere, and any unfortunate residents of that 'somewhere' most definitely were made aware of the horror.
I haven't any authority to decide what the Church "ought"
to condone, but that is of no consequence, since it is governments who make the decision to participate in wars.
I keep in mind that Jesus lived at a time when that area had been forced into submission to the Romans, and that a great deal of the Old Testament was written by people whose homelands were either overtaken or were under threat. All those writers were fallible, and therefore I believe quite likely to have let these situations color what they wrote (understandably).
This is not the case with a great deal of the civilized world today, and this should be taken into account when trying to make Biblical teachings fit our lives. I do think the concept of "the glory of going off to war" has been greatly reduced in civilized countries that are mostly
Christian. (I am thinking of the Middle East conflicts, and frankly I wonder how many of those people are fighting for territory as much as for religious beliefs.)
There are still tribal wars going on in many places. I
hope that missionaries aren't teaching that war is good.
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#10907
11/28/2000 8:30 PM
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Good Gawd! I made a mistake with atheist? That's a typical graphical error, you devil! Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I feel your pain...my bugaboo is liaison. People (read miserable little (expletive deleted) cub reporters) who are forever leaving out the second i and confusing "presently" with "currently." While I am on a rant, why are people using ongoing instead of the prefectly good continuing. Grumble, grumble, grumble!
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#10908
11/28/2000 9:16 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
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old hand
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that the Church must champion peace and support only those wars which . . . (4) have a reasonable probability of success
. . . but didn't the Crusades go 0-9 for the Church?
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#10909
11/28/2000 9:22 PM
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...which brings us back to Saracens at the gate.
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#10910
11/28/2000 10:20 PM
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[quote]. but didn't the Crusades go 0-9 for the Church?[\quote] Surely 0-9 is a little harsh? After all, Jerusalem was taken and held for a while during one of the Crusades. As morally repugnant as the Crusades were, I thnk the score was probably closer to something like 2-7. Just my $0.02
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#10911
11/29/2000 1:40 AM
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The Crusades are a wonderful example of what happens when the Church abdicates orthodox theology in favour of political power ... something the Church has done before and doubtless will do again.
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#10912
11/29/2000 9:46 PM
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for a truly unique perspective on the Crusades, I can recommend "Deus Io Volt!: A Chronicle of the Crusades"
by Evan S. Connell -- the "chronicle" is from the point of view of a French nobleman/knight from the court of Louis IX (towards the end of 13C, so it covers the whole ~200 years).
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#10913
11/29/2000 10:14 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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On the subject of the Crusades - I went to a wonderful lecture by Terry Jones (former Python) on the subject of Chaucer's knight. Those literati and English Lit scholars among you will be familiar with the paragon of virtue portrayed in the General Prologue. Terry Jones has constructed a fascinating argument that the knight was, in fact, a mercenary, intended by Chaucer as a rather complex joke, rather than a shining example of chivalry. Definitely worth a read if the Crusades are your thing. http://www.methuen.co.uk/chaucersknight.html
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