|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
isn't this ironic? (or, you say you have too much time on your hands?) http://www.geocities.com/eirig/
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
isn't this ironic?
It's actually® quite music.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
It's mebbe ironic that to make his point he had to descend into sarcasm. Irony ain't what it used to be ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Erm, yeah, I was wondering about that. Keeping in mind that I'm a US'n and thus irony-handicapped, could anyone tell me if my assessments of his examples are correct?
Underlying meaning: That was a stupid thing to do.
Ironic expression:
“Oh, brilliantly done.”
“Aren’t you the clever one, then?”
“The stupidest act in human history.”
“Oh, brilliantly done.” strikes me as sarcasm.
“Aren’t you the clever one, then?” seems like irony.
“The stupidest act in human history.” is a flat-out insult.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,027 |
Trying to define irony, imho, is like sniffing at the chemical formula of a perfume..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
It actually depends pretty much on how things are said whether irony becomes sarcasm or not. It's a tone of voice or an expression as much as anything else. The mere lift of an eyebrow can signal killingly funny irony if you know what you're seeing.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 2,661 |
Phranz, you *owe® tsuwm some props. ------- ...is like sniffing at the chemical formula of a perfume..
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
In reply to:
The mere lift of an eyebrow can signal killingly funny irony if you know what you're seeing.
...and this is where I get to insert mycterismus again.
Edit:
I just want to insert the passage below from a rhetoric site many of us here use as a reference. The reason I'm doing so is purely as an interesting point of sarcasm defined as a 'bitter' form of irony. I'm not doing so to say in any way whatsoever that I agree (or disagree) with the point--just that it's an interesting point in that we've discussed at length the difference between irony and sarcasm:
sarcasm
sar'-kazm from Gk. sarcazein, "to tear flesh, to speak bitterly"
sarcasmus, amara irrisio
the bitter taunt
Use of mockery, verbal taunts, or bitter irony(emphasis, mine).
Examples
If you be the son of God, descend from the cross —Matt. 27
In the following passage Cleopatra taunts her lover Antony when a messenger comes from Rome with possible news from his wife or orders from Caesar:
Nay, hear them [the messages], Antony.
Fulvia perchance is angry; or who knows
If the scarce-bearded Caesar have not sent
His pow'rful mandate to you: "Do this, or this;
Take in that kingdom, and enfranchise that;
Perform't, or else we damn thee."
—Antony and Cleopatra 1.1.19-24
Related Figures
irony
mycterismus
asteismus
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981 |
My view of irony is to do with intention. If an ironic remark is intended as a put down, it becomes sarcasm. Even the wink of an eye cannot retrieve the way that the intention "leaks out".
I love irony and do often hover on the edge between sarcasm and irony, sometimes getting it wrong, sometimes being misinterpreted. The easiest laugh to get with irony is where the butt of the joke is yourself, people feel that they are laughing with you not against someone else. The next problem is - what is putting yourself down all the time doing to you? I suspect the the road to perfection is a road to a world with very little humour.
The discussion a while ago on this board was that all jokes have a butt except puns which are, therefore by definition, not jokes. The reason that it is hard to get a laugh, rather than a groan, out of a pun is that there is no-one to laugh at.
I suppose that my bottom line is that there is very little difference between irony and sarcasm, it is to do with what is acceptable in the culture at the time. Irony is the soft end of sarcasm.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296 |
In reply to:
Irony is the soft end of sarcasm.
Yes, as long as the discussion is strictly about verbal irony or perhaps conversational irony and not about, for instance, dramatic irony. I think we discussed in previous discussions the dramatic irony of Oedipus' speeches in which he promised to ferret out and kill the king's murderer--all the while the audience knowing full well that it was Oedipus himself who had murdered the king. Excellent example of dramatic irony. No soft end of sarcasm applicable in this case.
One of the problems we have here on this board whenever discussing an aspect of irony is the subject is so dense and broad. There are literally volumes written on the subject--entire books about the subject of irony--and apparently the subject never dies down and goes away since new volumes continue to appear in academic libraries.
But having said that little bit of not much above, I still like very much your phrase: "Irony is the soft end of sarcasm..."
|
|
|
|
Forums16
Topics13,913
Posts229,412
Members9,182
| |
Most Online3,341
Dec 9th, 2011
|
|
|
0 members (),
854
guests, and
2
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
|
