Wordsmith.org: the magic of words

Wordsmith Talk

About Us | What's New | Search | Site Map | Contact Us  

Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
#107031 07/04/2003 8:43 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
From the Dryden translation of Plutarch's Life of Marcellus:

After many other such affronts offered him by the men of Engyium, Marcellus, having taken them all prisoners and cast them into bonds, was preparing to inflict upon them the last punishment; when Nicias, with tears in his eyes, addressed himself to him. In fine, casting himself at Marcellus's feet, and deprecating for his citizens, he begged most earnestly their lives, chiefly those of his enemies. Marcellus, relenting, set them all at liberty, and rewarded Nicias with ample lands and rich presents. This history is recorded by Posidonius the philosopher.


Bingley


Bingley
#107032 07/04/2003 9:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Oh, grovelling.


#107033 07/05/2003 1:36 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Here's what Atomica (soon to become Gurunet again, apparently) has:
dep·re·cate (dĕp'rĭ-kât')
tr.v., -cat·ed, -cat·ing, -cates.
To express disapproval of; deplore.
To belittle; depreciate.
[Latin dçprecârî, dçprecât-, to ward off by prayer : dç-, de- + precârî, to pray.]

dep're·cat'ing·ly adv.
dep're·ca'tion n.
dep're·ca'tor n.
USAGE NOTE The first and fully accepted meaning of deprecate is “to express disapproval of.” But the word has steadily encroached on the meaning of depreciate. It is now used, almost to the exclusion of depreciate, in the sense “to belittle or mildly disparage,” as in He deprecated his own contribution. In an earlier survey, this newer sense was approved by a majority of the Usage Panel.


From the quote, I can't think that Nicias is disapproving of or deploring his people, nor warding them off by prayer. I was thinking that, had Dryden added 'himself' after deprecating, it would read a little better. But grovelling gets the idea across pretty clearly, without the extra word.
What is meaning of in fine, please?



#107034 07/05/2003 1:39 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
What is meaning of in fine, please?

In the end? I believe it's "een fee-nay".




formerly known as etaoin...
#107035 07/05/2003 1:48 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
That was my guess, but.


#107036 07/05/2003 1:49 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
who you callin' "but"?



formerly known as etaoin...
#107037 07/05/2003 1:55 PM
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Well, seeing as you're ahead...


#107038 07/05/2003 2:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
wwh Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
"Deprecating " here souncs like "praying for forgiveness".


#107039 07/05/2003 5:05 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
From the Latin, deprecatus, which is the past participle of deprecari, which derives from precari (to pray), meaning to save the day through prayer.


#107040 07/05/2003 11:05 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
This translation uses "in fine" a lot. From context, it seems to mean something like, to cut a long story short.

Bingley


Bingley
#107041 07/05/2003 11:15 PM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
So, how did we get from "to save the day by prayer" to "disapprove of"?

Bingley


Bingley
#107042 07/05/2003 11:26 PM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Offline
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Thanks for that elucidation Father Steve - it's a fine example of the tendency in Dryden's period to attempt to prettify the raw bones of English with Latinate embellishments. Educated at Westminster School and Trinity College (Cambridge) and in 1668 made poet laureate, Dryden was emblematic of that upper-class post-Elizabethan period of the development of the English language in many ways.

There arose among a group of English authors the idea that the English language could be made more perfect, that it could be turned into as ‘eloquent’ a language as classical Latin. ‘Eloquence’ was a concept first associated with the ancient Greeks. Eloquence made a language more persuasive, and persuasion was central to the Greek ideal of the democratic city states such as Athens. The concept was important to the Romans too, who applied it to the writing of literature as well as public speaking. One linguistic dimension of eloquence was copiousness: the language needed enough words to represent every idea. In fact, it needed more than this: in order to prevent repetition of the same word, a variety of synonyms were needed to provide stylistic variation. This could be achieved either by greatly increasing the word stock or by increasing what was called ‘significancy’ – the ability of words to mean more than one thing (polysemy). […] How, then, could English be made more eloquent so that it could take over from Latin in the writing of poetry and literature, and so that a ‘national’ literature could be created which expressed the emerging cultural identity of England? There were three principal means of creating new vocabulary: words could be invented, using existing principles of word formation; words could be adopted from Latin or Greek; or obsolete words could be brought back into use, perhaps with new meanings. English writers enthusiastically supported the project to increase the English lexicon. It is estimated that during the period 1500-1700 over 30,000 new words were added to the English vocabulary. The process reached its peak in the early 1600s when, on average, over 300 new words were recorded each year. […] The many Latin words introduced into English during this period made the new literary language difficult for many readers to understand… *

So we should not feel so put out to be struggling over the odd word all this time later!



*from:
Graddol, Leith & Swann (1996) English – history, diversity and change, London, Routledge. ISBN: 0415131189



#107043 07/05/2003 11:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
that's a great quote, thanks, Mav!



formerly known as etaoin...
#107044 07/06/2003 12:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 2,788
When praying against something, one might be expected to name it, in less than favourable terms. "Oh Lord, deliver us from the awful Philadelphians who are about to invade fair Pittsburgh ..." That sort of thing. One suspects that, in praying against disaster, one disapproves of that which is the identified evil.

But I am just making this up ...


#107045 07/06/2003 12:38 AM
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
pretty good conjecture, padre..

to pray for deliverance from > to pray against > to plead earnestly against > to express an earnest wish against > to express earnest disapproval of



Moderated by  Jackie 

Link Copied to Clipboard
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site. Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.

Home | Today's Word | Yesterday's Word | Subscribe | FAQ | Archives | Search | Feedback
Wordsmith Talk | Wordsmith Chat

© 1994-2025 Wordsmith

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0