#10654
11/17/2000 9:48 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Mar 2000
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I attribute this problem partly to my Indian background - where irregular and infrequent words, when used, were usually pronounced the 'Indian' way, but the fact is that I often have problems with stresses - the ways in which words need to be accented when pronounced.
For instance, if I am asked to pronounce economy, economics, economist and economical in quick succession, it rapidly turns into a litany of reflected-sounds-of-underground-spirits.
My most embarrassing moment was when I turned epiphany into "eppy-fanny" (it included a genuine slip of the tongue) and you can imagine the ribald risibility it evoked in my colleagues (who spend most of their time, you may be pleased to know, Jackie, in the gutter).
I also read somewhere, that whilst RP (the accent I affect) is often seen as authoritative in most matters of pronunciation (socially speaking, since we don't really support the prescriptivist agenda), it has strange lacunæ in its abilities. For instance veterinary is almost impossible to pronounce in RP. (I know, I've tried.) Most RP speakers, I suspect, either plump for vet or veterinarian (which has its own awful complications).
Does others have a similar problem - that of their accent making it difficult for them to pronounce certain words, particularly with regard to getting the stresses 'right'?
And how do you pronounce 'veterinary' anyway?
cheer
the sunshine warrior
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#10655
11/17/2000 10:41 AM
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Posts: 460
addict
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In my training days, I used to show one of the John Cleese management films "Decisions, decisions" which, in one scene, has Nigel Hawthorne (I think) saying the word 'arbitrarily' (with the accent on the first syllable). It took me a few viewings, initially, to work out what the word actually was -- and, even now, I don't think it's a word that I would attempt to say in public.
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#10656
11/17/2000 10:52 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>And how do you pronounce 'veterinary' anyway?
It's like my problem with colliery.
I pronounce it vet-inary in a light gabble, so no-one notices if I'm wrong! The usual UK cop out is to call them a vet, rather than veterinary sugeon (never veterinarian). I can see why!
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#10657
11/17/2000 11:32 AM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,346
veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2000
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I'm probably guilty of non-RP pronunciation here ( references please, people! I know this has been well covered before.) but my pronunciations would be as follows: veterinary: vet-RIN-ur-ee colliery: COL-yur-ee arbitrarily: ar-bih-TREHR-ih-lee ( but arbitrary: AR-bih-tree) No doubt a spotless example of the Queen's English. 
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#10658
11/17/2000 12:42 PM
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Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
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Shona!
Here's your selection with my (admittedly without any authority) comments:
veterinary: vet-RIN-ur-ee - I'd find it well-nigh impossible to slur/elide the second 'e', and therefore I arrive at (bold marking the stronger of the accented syllables) VET-uh-RIN-uh-ree (the 'uh' standing for the schwa - bother; where's that inverted e when you want it?) Awkward as heck, innit?
colliery: COL-yur-ee Again, it wouldn't be a straightforward 'y' at the start of the second syllable, but a diphthongal one with a hint of 'i' (or short 'ee' if you prefer) at the start.
arbitrarily: ar-bih-TREHR-ih-lee I think I'm pretty close to this one. When doing the 'posh', however, I might move the stressed syllable to more of a TRAHR than TREHR... ulp.
(but arbitrary: AR-bih-tree) Would never slur the third syllable if I can help it. (Get me drinking, however, and it's a differench shtory...hic.)
And no, I would never attempt to pronounce arbitrarily with an initial syllable stress... Ye gods and little fishesonbikes! Tell Nigel to go away and leave me at least partly content with me unacknowledge lapsi linguae (pig Latin for those who don't know that four legs is good, two legs bad!!)
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#10659
11/17/2000 12:51 PM
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Posts: 1,004
old hand
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old hand
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Jo
Why 'never veterinarian'?
I find that word easier than veterinary. Or is there some social stigma attached to it?
Seeking sonic solace in London...
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#10660
11/17/2000 4:05 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I have always been encouraged to pronounce the word, "vetin'ry" - with the "i" almost as a schwa. "Coll-yi-ree" is pronounced "Dahn t'mine" round here!  (or was until Maggie closed them all!) I would favour " ar-bih-TREHR-ih-lee " as the real RP - "trahr" sounds a bit phony.
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#10661
11/17/2000 4:49 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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My dear, sweet shanks--
As I said, I adore the way I've heard people from India speak English! Oh, the lilting-ness!! [if there were an icon for 'deep pleasure', I'd put it here!] But I understand, your concern is not to be embarrassed.
I have no problem pronouncing any of the words you mention--but keep in mind, how I say them may not be how other
Americans say them. (And, do I care? Not at the moment!)
Veterinary: just how it looks--VEH-ter-ih-nary.
Colliery: CALL-yer-ee
Arbitrarily: ar-bih-TRAR-ih-lee. Oh, and
Veterinarian: also just how it looks: veh-ter-ih-NAR-ee-un.
Perhaps I'm rather insistent on saying all the syllables due to a leftover from my childhood: my mother often said,
"straw-breeze" for strawberries, and my stubbornness kicked in an instant rejection of shortenings of that type.
That just kicked in another childhood memory: in season, a street vendor used to wheel his cart around the neighborhood, and I'd hear his deep voice bellowing:
"Stee-RAW-berries, strawberries".
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#10662
11/17/2000 6:01 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I'm pretty much in agreement with your pronunciations, Jackie, but of course it ain't RP! you know, I just now realized that although the Brits are enamoured of all these aextra letters, when it comes to saying them it's "whoa nelly!"
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#10663
11/17/2000 6:26 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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that although the Brits are enamoured of all these aextra letters, when it comes to saying them it's "whoa nelly!" You mention this to a lady from Loo-uh-vulle?
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#10664
11/17/2000 7:01 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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>You mention this to a lady from Loo-uh-vulle?
do you mean lou-ee-ville?
or Lou-vil?
Common joke in US-- how do you pronounce the capital of Kentucky?
Lou-vil?
lou-ee-ville?
Loo-uh-vulle?
Jackie will be glad to share the answer!
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#10665
11/17/2000 7:13 PM
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In reply to:
that although the Brits are enamoured of all these aextra letters, when it comes to saying them it's "whoa nelly!"
You mention this to a lady from Loo-uh-vulle?
ufda! what's this got to do with taking a name such as Raymond Luxury Yacht and pronouncing it Throat Warbler Mangrove?
[MP ref #37]
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#10666
11/17/2000 8:33 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I would pronounce these words in the same way as Jackie. A bit of a clarification though.
Here we use veterinary in two ways:
1) as the study, and medicine, of domestic animals
2) the place where a veterinarian works, but in this case we always tack on the word hospital (veterinary hospital).
Is this the same everywhere? I am getting the impression that they are interchangeable in the U.K.
In French we only have the one word. Just vétérinaire for the person and hôpital vétérinaire for the place. Perhaps this is where the use was picked up.
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#10667
11/17/2000 9:07 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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ufda! what's this got to do with taking a name such as Raymond Luxury Yacht and pronouncing it Throat Warbler Mangrove?As much as I enjoyed the reference, supererogatory is supererogatory, however many letters are involved, and the "is" in Louisville is utterly supererogatory. If u Yanx r so hot on dspensin with unecesary letrs, the least u can do is b consistnt.
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#10668
11/17/2000 9:32 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 197
member
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Here we use veterinary in two ways:
1) as the study, and medicine, of domestic animals
2) the place where a veterinarian works, but in this case we always tack on the word hospital (veterinary hospital).
I almost always hear veterinary used as in veterinary medicine or veterinary hospital. If I were to refer to either the place or the person I would use veterinarian.
We say 'take the cats to the veterinarian,' whether we mean Dr Wendy or Cary Animal Clinic
Veterinary=adj. Veterinarian=noun?
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#10669
11/17/2000 9:37 PM
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Joined: Apr 2000
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Carpal Tunnel
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>the "is" in Louisville is utterly supererogatory.
wha? I don't understand your point. according to The History of Louisville website "Legend has it that the town was named after settler Henry Lautzenheiser's son Lewis, but the name was later changed to Louisville when it was discovered that a Lewisville already existed in Monroe County." anyway, Louis can be pronounced Lew-iss or Lew-ee; Lew/Lou is a rather different name. St. Louis, for instance, isn't commonly referred to as St. Loo.
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#10670
11/17/2000 9:39 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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[quote]I have always been encouraged to pronounce the word, "vetin'ry" - with the "i" almost as a schwa.
Interesting. It is harder to imagine an accent further removed from RP than mine own, yet that is exactly how we were encouraged to say the word. RP and NyuZuld - strange bedfellows indeed!
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#10671
11/17/2000 10:13 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
the "is" in Louisville is utterly supererogatory.
wha? I don't understand your point
Sorry, tsuwm, just another failed joke on my part. Jackie once told me that natives pronounce it Lou-uh-vulle. Hence, instead of "is" it ought to be spelled with a schwa, the "is" being redundant. Mea culpa 
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#10672
11/18/2000 3:25 AM
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Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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OK, all you wanna-be cowpokes!
As the one and only native-born resident expert on Louisville, KY, on this Board, I invoke my full authority as such in making these next statements.
First, if you were raised here, you say LOO-uh-vull, but in the same amount of time it takes to say one syllable.
Second--this city was named in honor of le roi Louis XVI of France, for his help during the American Revolution. He and his family would have been upset if we'd dropped the
'is', as was suggested. I know--I asked him.
Third--I was surprised that no one commented on the fact that Louisville ain't the capital of Caintuck.
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#10673
11/18/2000 4:36 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Max Quordlepleen wrote: Interesting. It is harder to imagine an accent further removed from RP than mine own, yet that is exactly how we were encouraged to say the word. RP and NyuZuld - strange bedfellows indeed!
I actually blame the spread of Zild on today's TV announcers. They used to have to ape RP, but now they don't even have to be able to speak in English sentences. My (English) mother had fits over this. My (Zild-speaking) father was happy that all the pretension had been dropped. I just spoke Zild like all of my contemporaries (sounds of vowels being flattened underfoot).
I hear "VET-nary" most often. Usually, though, it's just "Vet".
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#10674
11/18/2000 5:20 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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As an off-shoot of this thread, I was wondering if those of you who, like me, have to travel abroad fairly frequently, find yourself using "verbal markers" to try to determine where people you meet are from? This really only applies to people who are native English-speakers in my case.
Incidentally, speaking Zild goes down like a lead balloon in SE Asia which is where I go most often. I have to consciously move to an approximation of RP and slow down. When I was in Dallas earlier this year, I was asked if I came from Massachussetts ...
Anyway, a few examples of the verbal markers I use:
For an Australian, I wait for them to use a word like "six" or "pool". Zild and Strine are very similar and it's sometimes hard to tell them apart, but someone from Oz will usually say "six" as "seeks" and "pool" as "poo-il". There is an extreme brogue of Strine which is unmistakable, however.
Telling the Canucks and Yanks apart isn't so straightforward for me unless they come from south of the Mason-Dixon line. I have to wait for an "-out" word such as "out" or "about" or "shout" - a Canadian will say "a-ooo-t" while an American will say "ahht".
Telling which part of Britain someone is from used to be quite straightforward in most cases, based on brogue. But I notice that more and more Brits are speaking in a flat London accent. Probably a false impression!
What other verbal markers to people use - or am I the only nutter who cares?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#10675
11/18/2000 5:21 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
. My (English) mother had fits over this. My (Zild-speaking) father was happy that all the pretension had been dropped. I just spoke Zild like all of my contemporaries (sounds of vowels being flattened underfoot).
My maternal grandparents had a big influence on my speaking habits - I can blame them for many of my personality trays. I am grateful that they cured me of the Zild habit of pronouncing "women" and "woman" in exactly the same way. I hate that - I find myself silently screaming (sometimes not so silently) "it's wimmin for crying out loud!"
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#10676
11/18/2000 11:30 AM
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Posts: 460
addict
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<"Stee-RAW-berries, strawberries".>
So did DuBose Heyward in the early years of this century and included it in his novel 'Porgy' which George Gershwin subsequently, and memorably, set to music in the early thirties as 'Porgy and Bess'.
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#10677
11/18/2000 11:52 AM
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Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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...I was surprised that no one commented on the fact that Louisville ain't the capital of Caintuck.Jackie, of course we all knew that, but since Helen set the stage for you to share your knowledge, this nacherly polite bunch sat back and waited 
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#10678
11/18/2000 5:48 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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...I was surprised that no one commented on the fact that Louisville ain't the capital of Caintuck.Jackie, of course we all knew that, but since Helen set the stage for you to share your knowledge, this nacherly polite bunch sat back and waited Ah ... as the old joke goes, who's this "we", white man?It's been thirty-some years since I could recite all the state capitals of the US of A. An' I disremember Caintuck. But I do remember Kentucky. Capital is Frankfort, ain't it? Unless it's still Bowling Green, which it was just before Jackie and I were born. Give or take 90 years. Jackie, have you been to the Louisville museum to see the new Cezanne?
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#10679
11/18/2000 6:11 PM
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Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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have you been to the Louisville museum to see the new Cezanne?
Mer-SEE, you are up on things, aren't you, Hon? I are
impressed!! No, I don't think it is on display yet, but will check tomorrow's paper. (Speaking of which, I just checked Max's gift and learned that you are 18 hours ahead of me, so you are already in tomorrow!)
BUT--if I recall last week's paper correctly, the
GUTENBERG ARTIFACTS are now at our main library!
And I'll be there!
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#10680
11/18/2000 10:05 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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'never veterinarian' - some social stigma attached to it?
It's a Yankie word, Shanks, so the answer is she hestitates no, course not! We say veterinary surgeon (don't ask me why).
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#10681
11/18/2000 10:06 PM
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Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>new Cezanne
I didn't realise that he was still painting.
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#10682
11/19/2000 1:38 AM
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Posts: 2,891
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Of course Jo, it is a new painting method, slightly akin to postmodernism. I believe it is called postmortem. But don’t quote me on this, I might be dead wrong.
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#10683
11/19/2000 1:44 AM
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Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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"post-mortem-modern"-- If the dead can be elected to Congress, why couldn't they paint, as well?
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#10684
11/19/2000 7:07 AM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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(Speaking of which, I just checked Max's gift and learned that you are 18 hours ahead of me, so you are already in tomorrow!)
Well, we have to be world leaders in something! It used to be rugby, but after Saturday's match, hmmm. Time seems to be as good as anything else.
BUT--if I recall last week's paper correctly, the
GUTENBERG ARTIFACTS are now at our main library!
And I'll be there!
Good old Gutey! I'm a printer by trade from way back, so he's something of an icon for me. I always thought he was a bit of a cunning so-and-so setting up shop in a church crypt. Bit difficult to get slammed for heresy under the circumstances, something a lot of his contemporaries or successors didn't avoid.
I wonder if the exhibition that's hit Old Caintuck is the same one I saw in Njimegen in Holland in, I think, 1997 ...
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#10685
11/19/2000 11:31 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Jackie, have you been to the Louisville museum to see the new Cezanne?OK, hotshot, what's currently 'playing' at Atlanta's biggest museum?
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#10686
11/19/2000 11:34 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Of course Jo, it is a new painting method, slightly akin to postmodernism. I believe it is called postmortem. But don’t quote me on this, I might be dead wrong.
I'm still chuckling, bel... it's a sort of decomposition, oui?
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#10687
11/20/2000 4:25 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
Jackie, have you been to the Louisville museum to see the new Cezanne?
OK, hotshot, what's currently 'playing' at Atlanta's biggest museum?
The Cezanne acquisition by the Louisville museum is common knowledge in the art investment world. I have a semi-professional interest in that. The mention of "Louisville" in the preceding posts simply triggered a memory from a recent article I read - and Jackie appears to be the sort of lady who would be interested in seeing a Cezanne.
I didn't have the foggiest notion what (a) the largest museum in Atlanta is; or (b) what is on exhibit there. I think I do now after a quick search on "Atlanta", "Art" and "Museum" using the AltaVista search engine. I take it you're referring to Elton John's snapshots at the High? Sorry, I gave up on him after "Yellow Brick Road"! I get the distinct impression he's more famous for being famous than for his music these days.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#10688
11/20/2000 12:09 PM
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more famous for being famous than for his music these days.Natural synergy with 93.7% of modern art...?
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#10689
11/20/2000 12:50 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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Kudos to you, Kiwi. Excellent search. Elton's photographs ("snapshots", schnapshots). He lives here now. I'm not impressed with him, but he has an awesome collection. I have a semi-professional interest in photography. I was just teasing when I called you hotshot, by the way -- silly me, I thought NZ humor was similar to Oz humor, sarcasm and irony a given, and expected. *running and hiding*
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#10690
11/20/2000 1:04 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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>He lives here now
I thought he lived in Windsor.
Never mind, we get Madonna, you get Elton. Net impact on humanity = zero.
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#10691
11/20/2000 1:11 PM
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Carpal Tunnel
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I thought he lived in WindsorOne overspending outrageous old queen is more than enough!
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#10692
11/20/2000 4:26 PM
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Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Jo and mav, I couldn't agree more . Elton's just a part-time resident here, I guess. For tax purposes.
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#10693
11/20/2000 5:50 PM
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Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
Jo and mav, I couldn't agree more .
Elton's just a part-time resident here, I guess. For tax purposes.
Mr Quordlepleen, at least, will understand when I suggest that Reg Dwight would be better off dead for a year for tax purposes, the same as another rock icon, Hotblack Desiderato ... but then he is/was from another time and space. And Max will know where/when!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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