|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261 |
Why are things that are rather sentimental or cliched sometimes described as cheesy or corny? How did this originate? On thinking about it, they seem like rather unlikely foods - why not... just wonderin'
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
I would take cheesy to mean of substandard quality, rather than sentimental or cliched. I think the metaphor is based on the texture of cheese and the fact that it doesn't always do quite what you would want when you are cutting it. I think corny derives from the rural aspects of it, the kind of unsophisticated demeanor of someone from the open prairie where much of the corn (in the USn sense) is grown. Why not wheaty? Well, we do talk of that sort of person as being a hayseed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48 |
I too have wondered about this. The Microsoft Encarta World English Dictionary 2001, on "corny," says "Late 16th century," in square brackets after the definition. Can the expression be that old? The Shorter Oxford English Dictionary, 5th Edition, says the first such use was 1930-1969, but gives only a definition, not an origin. I've always figured the reference was to farm life, so that a person among the corn would not be in the flow of urban life, thus would be a hayseed -- unsophisticated, not "with it."
As for "cheesy," 1870-1899 is the Shorter OED's first recorded date for its use in that sense. I wonder if it has to do with "cheeseparing," meaning stingy?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
Greetings, websafe! Nice to have another word nerd aBoard®  Meanwhile, little dog, this is an interesting thread and I guess your questions have been well addressed -- I have nothing to add, except to say I'm trying to think of other food-related terms similar to these two....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
other food-related terms similar to these two....hot-dog!!
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
Dear websafe: you mention of "with it" reminds me of seeing its origin being said to originate from the early 1900s when travelling carnivals had defrauded country bumpkin customers try to fight with the carnical operator who had cheated them. A "rhubarb" would ensue, and the "carnies" would yell "with it" to bring other canrnies to help fight the farmers.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I thought for sure that we had discussed this here, but I'll be darned if I can find it. I did find a couple of interesting ref.'s, though:
Interestingly, the Swedish word to describe corny, provincial or even farcical comedy -- principally on the stage -- is 'buskis'. This must derive from buskin -- if so, an example of a word taking an opposite meaning through misunderstanding. http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=weeklythemes&Number=57979and
Vaude slang referred to unsophisticated comedy as being "stuck in the corn," soon shortened to "corny." http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=83457P.S.--Welcome aBoard, websafe! Glad to have you.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48 |
Thanks for the kind welcome, AnnaStrophic.
Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th Edition, says "nerd" is PERHAPS from the so-named creature in Dr. Seuss' 1950 "If I Ran the Zoo"! Funny what you find when you look in the dictionary.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48 |
Thanks for your kind welcome, Jackie.
I thought "buskins" were those sort-of-platform-shoe-boot thingies actors wore in Shaxpr's day? <Looking it up> OK, yeah ... Second meaning is "tragedy." OK.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48 |
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48 |
Wow! Never heard that one!
As for "rhubarb," Webster's Collegiate 10th gives the argument/flap meaning, but doesn't offer any connection ... sigh. All I can think of is that the leaves are poisonous.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858 |
I forgot to mention in the carnie/farmer confrontation, the carnies called farmers "rubes" and when trouble was starting
also yelled "Hey, rube" to alert other carnies to the problem. "Reuben" was thought to be a typical famer name.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261 |
I managed to find an explaination for corny earlier and yep, Faldage and Websafe - you were spot on!  (about the connection with the supposedly 'simple-minded coutry folk' thingy.) It said this particular meaning was a 20th century development. I'd always thought it had something to do with corned beef or something... Nothing on cheesy, but on thinking about the phrase 'cheesy grin', could it have something to do with over-posed photography etc? I enjoyed the suggestion of a possible Dr Seuss and nerd connection. I think this is supposed to be the origional bit it was in: "I'll sail to Ka-Troo And Bring Back an It-Kutch, a Preep and a Proo, A Nerkle, a Nerd, and a Seersucker, too!"
I guess now only one question remains: what's a Seer, and how do you suck it?? 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261 |
Oh, and on the subject of rhubarbs, could the term have anything to do with the word's connection to the word barbarian... somehow? It's supposed to have originated from a latin term for it that sort of got mutated when it was introduced into English.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
could the term have anything to do with the word's connection to the word barbarianDave Wilton goes along with the theory that the fight definition of rhubarb derives from its use as a sound in radio to simulate the hubbub of a crowd: http://www.wordorigins.org/wordorr.htm#Rhubarb
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Re: I guess now only one question remains: what's a Seer, and how do you suck it??seersucker is a wonderful word.. it was a Word of the day a long time ago, and last year (about this time?) it was a subject of a thread (below the fold) in animal safari! (the sucker part of the word, is related to sugar(and that relationship is more evident in the french/ sucre--) and strangely enough, to crocidile and shingle (both the UK shingle (a gravel edge on the shore) and the US shingle (a gravelly material for roof coverings. (hint hintgravelly) you could look it up.. i think it was a thread started by word wind.. but i am getting old and senile.. so i could be wrong about the date and who started the thread..it might even be under words with interesting etemologies... (might just be easier to pick up a dictionary, now that i think about it! )
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261 |
Great site Faldage! > seersuckerI couldn't find it in a dictionary, but I did chase up its AWAD entry and posts on Animal Safari: http://makeashorterlink.com/?J33F24284It's certainly not a connection I'd have guessed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
I think the use of rhubarb goes further back than radio but I have no references for that.
The vaudville expression "stuck in the corn" makes sense as most of the performers were trying to get of the rural (corn)circuit and into the supposedly more sophisticated and better paying big city clubs. But where does "being a ham" come into it? I know it pre-dates Miss Piggy.
Another related term would be "he looks pretty seedy" for scruffy or "gone to seed."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 2,154 |
Oh another thought just after I clicked on continue. "Cheesy" is usually worse than corny. Possibly because of the way people react to cheese after it has been around too long???
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261
enthusiast
|
|
enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 261 |
Related to "a face that could curdle milk"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48 |
Zed: The Oxford English Dictionary, online, offers 1943 as the origin date for "rhubarb" as a fight; it was used by a baseball announcer. They cite 1882 as the earliest reference to "ham" as in "ham actor." And for "seedy" as scruffy, 1739.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511 |
You have access to the OED online, websafe?[clutching-throat]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210 |
<lights from above, trumpet fanfare, choirs of angels...> 
formerly known as etaoin...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48 |
Dear AnnaStrophic:
Is access to the OED online a big deal? Or are you teasing? (Can't tell -- no video hookup.)
The computers at my local public library have the OED online through their homepage.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065 |
Have you any idea how much online access to the OED costs -- and how many people here would dearly love to have it?
Bingley
Bingley
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 10,542 |
OED online is VERY* expensive... but many libraries subscribe to the service. if you have online access to a library, check with them; but also be aware that even if they have it you probably have to access it via a proxy server (which they can help you set up).
*Cost: £350+VAT/ US$550 per annum.
but hey, OUP is currently running a 75th anniversary special on the B&M 20 volume-set: only $895 dollar-bucks (this in preparation for clearing the shelves for OED3, no doubt)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48
newbie
|
|
newbie
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48 |
Bingley: I hadn't known the expense of the OED online, but now I do. If you can't get access to it as tsuwm has described, maybe I can look up some things for you.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,467 |
YCLIU:
I told people how to get access for free and was chastised for referring to a commercial web site. Anyone who really really wants to know how to get free in home access need only look up the last discussion or PM me.
TEd
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 725
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 725 |
To me, "cheesy" comes from cheesy grin, a sappy, overly sentimental smile for the camera.
Perhaps this meaning has been extended?
On the other hand, when I was in college (mid 1980's), we used cheesy as a contraction of cheap and sleazy. Our favorite phrase was: "Let's blow this cheesy joint."
Cheesy may also have assumed the connotation of chintzy.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803 |
"cheesy" comes from cheesy grin
As in "Say, 'Cheese'"?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 725
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 725 |
Yup. That's what it means to me. However......
The Dictionary of Contemporary Slang, by Tony Thorne, has this to say:
"Cheesy - adj.
unpleasant, unsavoury, squalid, disreputable, underhand. The original notion of smelly cheese has encompassed a number of nuances of distaste.
- 'a cheesy place.'
- 'a cheesy thing to do.' "
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
|
|
Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624 |
Okay then, serious question. What's the difference between a cheesy grin and a shit-eating grin?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
I don't use either expression, so I'm not sure, but to me the former (which I hate so much I can't type it) implies, "uh oh--I'm caught in the act, and I'm embarrassed", whereas the s-e one would imply, "I'm caught in the act and I'll suffer for it, but the wrong I've just done you was worth it, ha ha". Reminds me of a stubborn friend, who, at six years old, consciously decided that not getting to go out to recess was preferable to eating the school lunch on fried chicken liver days.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400 |
Re:unpleasant, unsavoury, squalid, disreputable, underhand-
yes, well in a world of natural cheeses-- which can have very powerful, and 'interesting'aromas-- cheesy would not often be something pleasant..
-- and there is always the title expression.. a cheesy grin is prehaps one made after cutting the cheese?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 725
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 725 |
Yeah, what Jackie said.
Except that I don't associate guilt with a cheesy grin, only that to me it implies a false, over-done smile; with s**t-eating grin, I agree with Jackie's definition entirely.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
Corny may have been originally derived from cornpone, the adjective, as in 'corpone humor' or 'what a cornpone idea'. (Cornpone, the noun, is a certain type of corn bread...right, Jackie? ) from the AHD: cornpone
SYLLABICATION: corn·pone
PRONUNCIATION: kôrn pn
VARIANT FORMS: or corn pone
NOUN: Chiefly Southern & Midland U.S. See johnnycake. See Regional Notes at johnnycake, light bread, pone.
ADJECTIVE: Informal Folksy and homespun, as in manner or speech: a penchant for cornpone humor; cornpone political prose.And a belated merry welcome, websafe, to our roving band of Wordable Herdables!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
We do have a tendency to stereotype, don't we? I know it predates radio and television; I've read books written in the 1800's that say things like 'you know those (fill-in-the-blanks)--they're all (fill-in-the-blank)'. But electronic media sure can help them spread. I caught a snippet on TV the other night, when somebody was telling how the guy who, I believe, started what became the Grand Ole Opry, would insist that all the performers dress like country bumpkins, and also made groups change their names to sound like what he thought would fit this image. For example, one group auditioned as "Joe Blow and his amalgamated music orchestra"; the guy hired them but made them change the name to something like "Joe Blow and his cornpone string band". Odd. But then, I suppose, one man's vision is another man's nightmare. [deliberately refusing to use PC terminology e] That reminds me: don't call me no herdable! [kicking over the traces e]
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,189 |
reinforcing stereotypes -- cornponeAnd, yet, Jackie, Hee Haw was a hit for decades milking that stereotypical cornpone humor for all it was worth. And everybody loved it. Especially the Southern rural crowd, the target audience for whom the show was originally developed in Nashville. But I think Hee Haw worked so well because everybody knew they (the performers) weren't taking themselves seriously at all. Then, of course, there's the comic classic, and wonderful Broadway show, Al Capp's L'il Abner...you jes' cain't get more cornpone then Dogpatch, USA! There was even a major character named Jubilation T. Cornpone! http://www.lil-abner.com/The comic, Barney Google/Snuffy Smith, and the 60's TV hit, The Beverly Hillbillies need a mention here, too. But then again, none of the above seemed to take thenselves too seriously, did they? People loved them because they were so corny! And made no pretension about it! " I'm pickin'...he's grinnin'!"
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
|
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613 |
Hee Haw was a hit for decades milking that stereotypical cornpone humor for all it was worth. And everybody loved it.
Make that everybody minus one, then. I hated it. To me, there is often a fine line between comedy and stupidity, and that show was definitely stupid and NOT funny. I was going to add, ...and never the twain shall meet, but that's not true, either. There were lots of Lucy episodes where she did something stupid that I thought were hilarious, and I also (mostly) thought Gomer Pyle's stupidity was pretty funny--until he got his own show, at least.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 725
old hand
|
|
old hand
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 725 |
My brother and I enjoyed watching Hee Haw and The Beverly Hillbillies when we were in elementary school.
Nuff said.
|
|
|
|
|
