#10199
11/13/2000 2:56 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2
stranger
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stranger
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Anyone else worried about incorrect use of "your" becoming part of Standard English? I see it everywhere, including on today's AWADmail:
"Of course this leads to some interesting puns in British English that don't work in US English ("I'll give you a ring unless your engaged" has two meanings in UK English but only one in US English).
David Loaring
David Loaring
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#10200
11/13/2000 4:29 PM
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Welcome aBoard, David.
Yes, I've noticed that tendency. I don't know whether it will be unstoppable or not. U.S. society as a whole has certainly been getting more and more casual in the last few decades, and language would seem to be a part of that trend.
I also notice people using 'there' for 'their'--and never mind 'they're'!
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#10201
11/13/2000 4:35 PM
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and what about sonic writing-- a hare's breath for a hairs breadth- since in the US we tend to measure the height, width and depth, not breadth of something.
sonic writing is something like a mondegreen... you go along thinking every one knows something till you trip over something the rabbit has exhaled!
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#10202
11/14/2000 1:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 2
stranger
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stranger
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No doubt the study of this kind of writing is called "sonics".
David Loaring
David Loaring
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#10203
11/14/2000 4:00 PM
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veteran
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Hi David, Yeah, this is definitely a pet hate of mine in all its forms, though the one that drives me most up the wall is the confusion of its with it's  I know that the confusion is caused by "'s" more often meaning "belonging to" (genitive) than being short for "is", but I'm sorry, it brings out the grammar policeman in me. And what really gets me is that supposedly well-educated people with highly-paid jobs are among the worst culprits. Grrrr! Spiky Fish P.S. People for whom English is not the first language are, of course, fully excused any kind of rant from the grammar police  . In fact they deserve to be showered with praise if they can get these particularly tricky facets of English right .
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#10204
11/14/2000 4:24 PM
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>grrrr! dogfish, I always tell folks that evidence this confusion to consider his --> hers --> its and then extend that to all possessive pronouns -- of course, if they've got their and there confused, there's no hope; we just have to lock them up and throw away the keys. 
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#10205
11/14/2000 4:54 PM
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> ("I'll give you a ring unless your engaged" has two meanings in UK English but only one in US English). I'm in total agreement with you, David, as I'm sure is the tired overworked proofreader (one of us) who let this slip by (I feel his pain  ).
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#10206
11/14/2000 4:57 PM
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supposedly well-educated people with highly-paid jobs are among the worst culpritsYou are not wrong fishy - I growled last night when one of my kids came home with a Governors' Report from their secondary school with this very mistake liberally splattered over its fair face! Still, I guess they may be let off this fishhook, as teachers are certainly not well-paid
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#10207
11/14/2000 5:07 PM
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on the other hand (fin, whatever  ) ... As a proofreader myself, I'd probably have resorted to using [sic], since it was someone else's words. Ah well, back to the docks....
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#10208
11/14/2000 6:34 PM
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In reply to:
Yeah, this is definitely a pet hate of mine in all its forms, though the one that drives me most up the wall is the confusion of its with it's
Sorry, shona, but that particular sin, doesn't top my list. Higher up, though not necessarily on top, is loose for lose. As much as this drives me into homicidal rage, it puzzles me. To date, I can't recall having seen it outside the IT arena, where it appears to be endemic, even among people who claim that English is their first language.
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#10209
11/14/2000 6:41 PM
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In reply to:
Sorry, shona, but that particular sin, doesn't top my list.
Does anybody else ever do this? There is an apparently superfluous comma in the sentence above - a vestige of a subordinate clause that didn't make it. Since Aenigma is too idiosyncratic for general use, I tend to get so concerned with looking for typos and spelling errors that I often miss the detritus left behind from a sudden change of thought. It would give me much comfort to hear that I am not alone in this. 
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#10210
11/15/2000 1:50 AM
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It would give me much comfort to hear that I am not alone in this.
Sweet Max: you are not alone in this! I, of the convoluted sentences, often loose (gotcha!) my wildly careering thoughts out into the bewildering wilderness of comma-land.
Max-ie, I see that you are just 33 posts away from becoming an addict. Go, Max! Go, Max!
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#10211
11/15/2000 2:02 AM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 347 |
Max,
Seems it's a comman problem, a commacopia of punctuation marks.[groan*2]
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#10212
11/15/2000 4:37 AM
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I, of the convoluted sentences,My record to date is around 110 words. I was 15 at the time, whatever grade that is, and argued with my History teacher about it. He marked me down from A to A- specifically because of my masterpiece. I remonstrated that it was less than half the length of a certain sentence in Areopagatica. Sadly, this was a fatal flaw in my argument, as he scored the killer punch by simply stating, "you're not Milton." Ah, the hubris of youth!
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#10213
11/15/2000 12:15 PM
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the hubris of youth!In my youth Milton was a foul-smelling antiseptic. In my reading of poetry later on...
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#10214
11/15/2000 3:07 PM
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>"you're not Milton."
he didn't, by any chance, preface this with "I knew Milton; Milton was a friend of mine"?
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#10215
11/15/2000 3:12 PM
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schoolIf school is to blame for many of our woes, consider the revenge of the wide-eyed pupils: Back to school – spilling for big grinners! http://www.takeourword.com/page5.html
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#10216
11/15/2000 4:44 PM
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Posts: 1,346
veteran
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I guess they may be let off this fishhook, as teachers are certainly not well-paid
Agreed, mav, but they are also responsible (for their sins) for setting the future standard, which our sprats will deliver back to us!
So I hereby withdraw any get-out clause I may have implied for people who are not well paid. And teachers get a special visit from the Grammar Police just before they've managed to make the first coffee of the day (I can't imagine a more cruel punishment)!
[evil grin]
Fish with a Chip on its shoulder
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#10217
11/15/2000 4:52 PM
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they are also responsible I don't think I can agree with that, Fisk. When you consider how few hours of teacher/pupil contact time there actually are - frequently less than two hours per week with a class of 30 or so, meaning 4 minutes in which to influence the weekly behaviour and outlook of a given child... Then compare that with the time the parents (could) be spending with the sprats... Then compare that with the average weekly exposure to American dominated TV... And add in the weekly exposure to films... Popular music... MTV (this comes in a class of its own!) and even the Kellogs cornflake packet... It's really little short of a miracle we grow up as sane and articulate as we do (and I'm not too sure about thee!)
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#10218
11/15/2000 4:55 PM
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Posts: 1,346
veteran
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consider his --> hers --> its
Good point, tsuwm. Waddya know, there is a wee bit of logic in there somewhere.
Actually if we can produce helpful hints to aid the grammatically challenged its probably a better thing than locking 'em up innit?
sound of heavy boots and door splintering...
eek.
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#10219
11/15/2000 5:09 PM
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When you consider how few hours of teacher/pupil contact time there actually areHmmm, but it's not necessarily about contact time, is it? If kids see a lot of official notices/letters/whatever that contain grammatical errors, then they gradually get the impression that those errors are at best unimportant, and at worst that they are not errors at all. And much as I agree on the importance of parental influence, I don't see how any of your examples other than the cornflake packet could cause written grammatical errors, mav... Hmmm (again), maybe song lyrics are on very dodgy grammatical ground, though they're too dagnabbited small for me to read these days. But Mr Kellog was innocent, last time I checked!
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#10220
11/17/2000 8:35 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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When you consider how few hours of teacher/pupil contact time there actually areI don't think you can get away with this excuse, mav. Contact hours overall are likely to be in the order of twenty-two to twenty-six, I think? and every teacher is in contact with pupils for a similar amount of time. It is the cumulative effect that counts, and it is necessary that all of the teachers should be exposing the brats to the civilizing effect of good, well constructed English. If any one of them is doing otherwise, then at the least there will be a tendency to confuse the recipients if not to corrupt them (linguistically, that is). You have a share of the corporate responsibility, therefore. Which is not to absolve the other people on your list from their responsibility, of course. But I do feel that teachers, above all others, should bear a heavy load of responsibility for "the quality of the product", as educationists (ugh!! - another nasty word) would put it, damn them. I write the above as a fellow teacher - although, "No teacher I of children or af lesser fry / No teacher I of Teachers - no, not I / For me, the further aim, the longer reach: / I teach men how to teach men how to teach! (apologies for the sexist nature of the doggerel - but I couldn't work out how to turn it into bitcherel )
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#10221
11/17/2000 12:17 PM
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a fellow teacher
I am actually currently hacking my way through a business jungle rather than attempting to civilise the nasty little oiks sprung upon an unsuspecting world by doting parents! However, I take your overall point about responsibilities - I have nothing but respect for all those attempting to spread the values of civilisation via the inhumane process of 'education'. I may even consider retraining as a teacher at some point in the near future.
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#10222
11/17/2000 3:10 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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and change your soubriquet from maverick to masochist?
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#10223
11/17/2000 4:34 PM
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Well, when the established pattern is to leave the profession in droves, who but a maverick might decide to join? (und put zat vhip down)
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#10224
11/22/2000 11:41 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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(und put zat vhip down)Not only the whip, but the board-rubber, the well-aimed piece of chalk and the flat of your hand! No wonder educational standards are slipping.
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#10225
11/24/2000 7:34 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 140
member
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member
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Yeah, right on, Rubie,
I learned a lot from that sort of thing.
lusy
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#10226
11/26/2000 1:17 PM
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Here's some help with loose and lose.....remember if something/someone is loose they are free to roam or run...the nmemonic is "The Moose is Loose" easy to figure as moose generally run around loose, being wild animals and all. So, by elimination lose means you have put something away so carefully that you cannot find it...it's lost. Perhaps passing this along will help in the battle!
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#10227
11/26/2000 6:46 PM
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Here's some help with loose and lose.....remember if something/someone is loose they are free to roam or run...the nmemonic is In point of fact, I do need help with "loose" and "lose" - I "lose it" every time someone lets loose with it.
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#10228
11/26/2000 6:51 PM
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I "lose it" every time someone lets loose with it.Don't you mean gets loose with it?
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#10229
11/26/2000 7:02 PM
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Do you have to get loose before you lose it or do you lose it then break loose. I"m lost. If I could figure out how to put in a weird whacked out face here, I'd loose it on you.
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#10230
11/26/2000 7:09 PM
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Don't you mean gets loose with it?Freudian slip. It reveals my own desire to let loose, in the manner of one of my favourite new idioms "to go postal."
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#10231
11/27/2000 2:34 AM
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my own desire to let loose, in the manner of one of my favourite new idioms "to go postal."Using the term loosely, I hope??
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#10232
11/27/2000 2:43 PM
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Using the term loosely, I hope??Use it or loose it! 
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#10233
12/05/2000 1:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 2000
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stranger
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stranger
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I'm more worried about one other thing- should I go along with current threads and should I mention such "errors" to people who make them? After a recent attempt to do so resulted in being reminded that English _is_ a changing language... (I was trying to point out that the word 'their' is plural and was informed that it had drifted to being singular now.)
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#10234
12/05/2000 1:43 PM
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at least there is an 'explanation' of sorts for using their in a singular construction. the only explanation for using their and they're (and the like) interchangeably is laziness or ignorance.
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#10235
12/05/2000 5:04 PM
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Another construction, which has crept into everyday usage and appears in all sorts of documents, is the use of "their" to cover the issue of possession by an unknown third person, as in
"He or she should look to their laurels".
It's so common that I don't wince quite as painfully as I used to when I see it!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#10236
12/05/2000 7:16 PM
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Posts: 3
stranger
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stranger
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ahh. but since when did the evolution of language come out of planning rather than just because :)
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#10237
12/06/2000 7:37 AM
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Posts: 1,027
old hand
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old hand
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..laziness or ignorance..which, once considered faults, have become pardonable, and are on the way of being regarded as endearing
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#10238
12/06/2000 11:53 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 1,981
Pooh-Bah
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>should I go along with current threads and should I mention such "errors" to people who make them?
A few of us (including some of the most guilty – moi?), agreed a while ago that we wouldn't go around correcting each other’s errors. There were two reasons (a) Too many of us type this stuff rather rapidly, either early in the morning or late at night to be able to guarantee no typos or spelling errors. The spell-checker is US-centric at best (and eccentric) at worst, so some of us can't be bothered using it. (b) We include in our number some serious pedants - it goes with the territory, if we corrected every error we may not get too far discussing anything and we'd scare off any newcomers.
If you think an error is worth mentioning then a private message is fine, if you dare. That allows the person to either correct their error or explain their logic in using the term. We've discovered that many, so called "errors" - (which may, or may not, include momentarily and orientate) are little more than regional variations. Occasionally there are a few posts that point out errors and cause some amusement.
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