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Carpal Tunnel
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We've discussed 'begging the question' several times here on AWAD. I came across a site on logic and found this definition of 'arguing in a circle,' which I think is pretty good. The example is clear. Please read the definition and let me know whether this application of 'begging the question' works for you:
ARGUING IN A CIRCLE - one assumes the truth of a premise, draws a conclusion from the premise, and then uses the conclusion to prove the initial premise:
"Boxing is a dangerous sport because it is unsafe."
"Unsafe" conveys the same idea as "dangerous" thus the speaker has not proven that danger exists.
ALSO CALLED: Begging the question, circular argument, petitio principi
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Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Sounds good to me. It's a pretty uncomplicated example, but you need that to get the basic idea across. The trick comes in recognizing petitio principii in a more disguised version. I'll see can I come up with an example.
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old hand
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old hand
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I wonder when then masses of mis-uses of this particular phrase will take over, and it will be accepted as meaning "which brings up a good question" or something along those lines. I hear it used that way much more often than the "right" way - by sheer numbers that should probably become the accepted meaning. (Not that I'm advocating for mis-use of words and phrases, but there's certainly precedent for the mis-uses to become accepted uses!)
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Carpal Tunnel
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masses of mis-uses of this particular phrase
Don't get me started.
OK. It's too late. Give me a defintion of to beg that fits the usage in begging the question.
Personally, I think that begging the question is a pretty shoddy translation of petitio principii.
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veteran
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veteran
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I don't recall seeing this conversation before, but I read only a small fraction of posts. I can't recall a specific instance of having heard the phrase "begging the question," however, my general recollection is that the "point of circularity" tends to be a little less obvious - something that's assumed without one's realizing the assumption has been made. That's not always the case - just the way it tends to be used.
k
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Carpal Tunnel
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FWIW, I've always taken the much derided use of "begging the question" to mean more than just "bringing up a good question". I've always taken it to mean that the question being brought up has been ignored by the person who is accused of having begged it.
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old hand
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old hand
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that the question being brought up has been ignored by the person who is accused of having begged it.
I'll have to think about that one. I've heard it used more along the lines of "which brings to mind this question which is so blindingly obvious I can't believe the person being interviewed didn't think of it". (Or, as you said, is ignoring it.) I feel the "blindingly obvious" bit is implied in current usage.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Give me a defintion of to beg that fits the usage in begging the question.
I think we've discussed this previously too, but here's the OED entry for this unique sense of to beg..
6. To take for granted without warrant; esp. in to beg the question: to take for granted the matter in dispute, to assume without proof.
1581 W. Clarke in Confer. iv. (1584) Ffiij, I say this is still to begge the question. 1687 Settle Refl. Dryden 13 Here hee's at his old way of Begging the meaning. 1680 Burnet Rochester (1692) 82 This was to assert or beg the thing in Question. 1788 Reid Aristotle's Log. v. §3. 118 Begging the question is when the thing to be proved is assumed in the premises. 1852 Rogers Ecl. Faith 251 Many say it is begging the point in dispute. 1870 Bowen Logic ix. 294 The vulgar equivalent for petitio principii is begging the question.
[pedantic edit alert]
I'm not sure, Faldage, but I think this answer may well be begging your question.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Another definition from the internet:
"The Latin term for the fallacy is petitio principii, a
translation of the Greek to en archei aiteisthai="at the
beginning to assume"; but aiteisthai does literally mean "to beg".
The phrase can be traced back to Aristotle (4th century B.C.):
"Begging or assuming the point at issue consists (to take the
expression in its widest sense) in failing to demonstrate the
required proposition. But there are several other ways in which
this may happen; for example, if the argument has not taken
syllogistic form at all [...]. If, however, the relation of B to C
is such that they are identical, or that they are clearly
convertible, or that one applies to the other, then he is begging
the point at issue." (Prior Analytics II xvi)
"
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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This extract from a listing of idioms also comes from the Internet. I have copied those using the word 'beg', as they may all be of interest. The idiom is followed by a definition and then by an illustration. The last of them is the one under discussion and shows that, as Bean suggested, the common misuse may indeed become accepted!
'beg off' - ask to be excused from duty, get out of a task. Some people volunteer to work and then they beg off.
'beg to differ' - have a different opinion, disagree with. When I stated the cause of the loss, he said, "I beg to differ."
'beg your pardon' - excuse me, please do not be offended. I beg your pardon, but I am using this phone booth.
'beg your pardon' - what did you say? will you repeat what you said? I beg your pardon? Did you say you are Paul Newman?
'beggars can't be choosers' - people who receive free things should not expect the best. When they complained about the shabby coats, he said, "Beggars can't be choosers." (I think this is more a proverb rather than an idiom - dxb)
'begs the question' - suggests this question, leaves this question unanswered. "That's a fine idea," said the Head Mouse, "but it begs the question: Which one of us will put the bell on the cat?"
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