Dear Des: Perhaps if small humans possessed more decorum, and did not dance, bounce, and jump quite so much, they would not have been compared to little goats. I'm not sure I would enjoy them more if the bounce were taken out of them.wwh
Goodness, Des, what inaccessable mountain retreat do you inhabit? I'm old, and "kids" has been a common term, at least in my family and milieu, as long as I can remember. It may not be elegant, but if you accept common usage as legitimization of a word, it's certainly legit, because it's common (in both senses of the word).
Mercy, I got left behind somewhere along the line! I am not an old fuddy-duddy, really! Thanks for your remarks, I may try to adjust my view of "kids". I guess it will always be slang to me, yet I am a big slang user of other words! Just a hangup I have, by the way I have 2 daughters!
Both Webster's and American Heritage designate "kid" as informal, not slang, for child, and Webster's even lists that use as its first definition, rather than young goat. I can't remember a time when "kids" didn't refer to children, although I do not use the term in formal writing. I think, des, in your lifetime "kid" has passed from slang to informal, and perhaps in the next century will be acceptable in all contexts.
If children is the first defination of "kid" it gives a new meaning to kid-gloves-- are kid gloves now something akin to boxing gloves -- used to handle unrully kids? or something like latex-- to insulate your self from contamination when dealing with kids?
The thing i used to had most was emptying my kids pockets-- i think that they sometimes could of qualified for super fund money used to clean up hazzardous waste sites! especially my son. but my daughter once filled her pockets with fruits from the ginko tree-- these are less than aromatic when fresh, when dried and mashed into pockets they are truly vile.
I'm with Des here. My father was a headteacher and loathes the creeping invasion of the word "kid". When I hear the word, I can almost see him wince. In his eyes, it was part of a lack of respect for children as people and their education. I rarely use the word. [mutter, mutter, heading off to mountain retreat emoticon]
In my grammar schooling, my teachers were adamant about the impermissibility of the use of the word "kid" in written English to mean anything other than a young goat. We were free to use it orally in the schoolyard but one risked severe punishment if used in an essay or story. This describes the 1950's.
In my grammar schooling, my teachers were adamant about the impermissibility of the use of the word "kid" in written English to mean anything other than a young goat. We were free to use it orally in the schoolyard but one risked severe punishment if used in an essay or story. This describes the 1950's.
I wish I could remember the statement by Oliver Wendell Holmes, ca. 1920, wherein he stated something to the effect that a word is akin to a cut gemstone, now reflecting one meaning, now another, depending on the light of context through which it is viewed. We all have some pet peeves regarding words seen in an "inappropriate" light. Mine is the term, "gay." To me it will always mean "cheerful," "blithe," "merry," and never homosexual. I seem, however, to be the only one in the world who's still holding out!
Jazzoctopus, if you're reading this, comment, please, on the possible link between "kinder" in German and "kid" in English.
There is a quite wonderful old English table grace which includes the petition "Give us gay and grateful hearts." I have used this grace on a number of occasions where it is met with snickers. Sad.
Jazzoctopus, if you're reading this, comment, please, on the possible link between "kinder" in German and "kid" in English.
Hmm. . . I can't profess to be an expert at the relationships between German and English, but I can try to help.
In German, child is "das Kind", which, because of the language similarities, could feasibly be linked to both child and kid. Perhaps "kid" started being used to refer to children when the US began using Kindergartens.
Give us gay and grateful hearts." I have used this grace on a number of occasions where it is met with snickers. Sad.
I think of Dylan Thomas' poem, "Do Not Go Gentle Into That Good Night," wherein the word is powerfully used, but, as you mentioned, met with snickers by young readers. Thus am I no longer gay, but morose and curmudgeonly.
Being morose is a bad thing. Being curmudgeonly is a great privilege attained by those who have lived long enough to form opinions predicated on advanced intelligence fueled by the wisdom of considering and reconsidering many issues. It is therefor a good thing ... one curmudgeon to another.
I actually said "kids" today in a conversation...guess what... (with your chiding I had to try) I only flinched a little bit! I may come down off the mountain! Thanks to you all!
There is a quite wonderful old English table grace which includes the petition "Give us gay and grateful hearts." I have used this grace on a number of occasions where it is met with snickers. Sad.
Queer is another fine word that's gone the same way, Father Steve. While I'm fond of the Carrollian (Hi Max!) synonym "curious", sometimes things are just so surreal they call for "queer".
Re "Queer" This is not a recent phenomenon. A good many years ago (well, 43 or 44 to be more exact) my mother made friends with a woman she met at work who was an English war bride. She and her husband came to dinner and we found that she had so many strange prejudices about food that there was scarcely anything on the table she could, or would, eat. She started to explain this by saying, "Well, I know I'm awfully queer ..." but never got to finish because my younger siblings all exploded in laughter.
One of my chums in Lincolnshire reacts to the news that someone has done something remarkably odd by saying "There's not so queer as folk." I think this to be a Cornish expression, but I'm uncertain. It conveys the sense wonderfully.
I claim the expression, "There's nowt so queer as folk," for Northern England. Almost certainly Yorkshire, although these days you will hear it in Lancashire as well/ Only among the older denizens, of course. The modern meaning of "queer" is too engrained amonst the younger people for the expression to be usable amongst them. (Also, as it's used by older people, it's "not cool")
Incidentally, I have noticed an upsurge in the use of "queer" to denote homosexuality, after it was relegated to non-PC language and replaced by "Gay." Many of my homosexual friends and acquaintances use it about themselves, these days. My guess (for what it's worth) is that "Gay" has achieved a pejorative connotation, (as will any word that describes any phenomenon that society in general finds hard to understand and harder to accept) and the homosexual community is trying to rehabilitate "queer" so that it no longer does have that sort of negative association.
I was only thinking of this today. A very popular Northern expression.
Similarly I agree about "Queer" being re-claimed and "Gay" being out of fashion. I've noticed that "You are gay" (and I don't think they mean cheerful) is becoming a popular playground term of abuse here, so perhaps that is one of the reasons for the change.
I too wish the word "gay" had not been dragged into the mud.I have known some people named Gay who were ridiculed when the change happened.I feel compassion for the unfortunates who have "a problem with sexual identification" and deplore the persecution of them which has destroyed so many gifted individuals. But I also deplore their new found aggressiveness.
>My guess (for what it's worth) is that "Gay" has achieved a pejorative connotation, (as will any word that describes any phenomenon that society in general finds hard to understand and harder to accept) and the homosexual community is trying to rehabilitate "queer" so that it no longer does have that sort of negative association.
Well, if I may speak to that as someone who has spent the majority of my career as the token hetero in the theatre... you wouldn't believe what they call themselves (no divisiveness intended by the use of the third person plural). Gay, queer, homo, fag, and far more indelicate things than I'd care to detail in this forum! The question of pejorative seems, as usual, more tied to the inclinations/sympathies of whoever is doing the talking... While I can get away with using said words in playful banter with my gay friends, Jerry Falwell is unlikely to reap the same benefit of the doubt.
This has been one of my projects over the last several many years. The word children is almost extinct in common English usage. From State of the Union speeches to radio interviews of education professionals the ratio of kids to children is about 100 to 1.
>The question of pejorative seems, as usual, more tied to the inclinations/sympathies of whoever is doing the talking...
Yes, I've often been the only xxx amongst a group of yyy, female/male, white/black, able-bodied/disabled, heterosexual/homosexual - I've learnt to be very, very careful with some of the words I've come across. In most instances words which are OK within a group are strictly not OK if you are not part of the group.
Now, tsuwm, (your project is to count? or to inveigh against?) when have you known me to inveigh against? I, too, grew up learning that kids is not acceptable in formal contexts. This, just from a survey of common usage, seems no longer to be the case.
Two elderly English gentlemen ensconced in the lounge of their club. First Man : "I say, heard about Cholmondley?" Other Man : "No. What's he doing?" First Man : "In Africa. Living with an ape." Other Man : "Male or female?" First Man : "Female, of course! He may be odd but he's not queer."
There was a young man from Dundee Who had sex with an ape in a tree The results were most horrid All ass and no forehead Six balls and a purple goatee. Date 1935
The US version of the cable channel Showtime is a spin-off of the Brit version that was on BBC 4, I think. The US version is set in Pittsburg (though it's filmed in Canada) and is considered to be the homosexual counterpart of HBO's Sex in the City
kids is not acceptable in formal contexts. This, just from a survey of common usage
I don't have any problem with "kids" usage (2 kids @ my house also), but I hope that Rugrats never moves from slang to daily use. Especially considering the nasty nature of those cartoon charactors.
Being CJ wrote : kids is not acceptable in formal contexts. This, just from a survey of common usage -------------------------------------------------------- My feeling is that "children" has a connotation of well behaved whereas "kids" has a raucous note to it. wow
Disclaimer: Wordsmith.org is not responsible for views expressed on this site.
Use of this forum is at your own risk and liability - you agree to
hold Wordsmith.org and its associates harmless as a condition of using it.
The question of pejorative seems, as usual, more tied to the inclinations/sympathies of whoever is doing the talking... While I can get away with using said words in playful banter with my gay friends, Jerry Falwell is unlikely to reap the same benefit of the doubt.
