#17581
01/29/2001 5:06 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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Posts: 1,289 |
The word ennui in another thread, with its French or pseudo-French pronunciation, reminds me of a favorite bete-noir of mine, the word envelope which many people insist on pronouncing in half-Franch fashion, with the first syllable sounded with a sort of nasal imitation of French, but the other syllables in English fashion. To me, ahnvelope (rhyming with cantaloupe) is worse than if you just pronounced the whole word in French (to rhyme with well up). I, of course, make the 1st syllable N. This dopey Frenchification is a favorite with the pretentious.
What other misdeeds have you all heard committed on the pure source of English, foreignizations or otherwise, by those who think the language needs a higher tone?
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#17582
01/29/2001 6:14 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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the pure source of English...Run that one by me again, Bob! Is this the same muddy confluence of Latinate, Saxon, Viking, French, Hindi and a thousand other tributatry streams in which I paddle daily? 
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#17583
01/29/2001 8:19 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 137
member
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member
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Posts: 137 |
I thought that was one of the glories of modern English is that we go out and find a word we like and make it our own. I didn't know we were polluting the "pure".
P.s. I say ahnvelope; thinking it's a regional thing and not a snotty thing.
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#17584
01/29/2001 8:31 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 13,858
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Dear Bob: I call them Nvelopes. But when in Rome, one does as the Romans do. So I find myself copying what seems to be most wide usage. I used to get kidded a lot about Boston accent, but it has worn off quite a bit, though people here in California ask me after one sentence if I am from Boston. I'm not sure what they notice.wwh
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#17585
01/29/2001 8:34 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In reply to:
P.s. I say ahnvelope; thinking it's a regional thing and not a snotty thing.
I feel similarly. I find myself using ON-velope, and N-velope almost equally. As a child, I heard ON-velope more often, but now N-velope is probably more common here in The Shaky Isles, and I probably use it more often than ON-velope, which pronunciation (here at least) long ago lost any connotation of Franglais pretension it may once have had.
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#17586
01/29/2001 10:50 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 6,511
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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I go back and forth between the two pronunciations, too. As I do with route ("root" and "rowt"). Usually I say "root" but in this combination: paper "rowt." Y'all?
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#17587
01/30/2001 6:35 AM
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Joined: Apr 2000
Posts: 3,065
Carpal Tunnel
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For me route is always a homophone of root. Making it a homophone of rout (= put to flight) definitely sounds as if the speaker comes from the other side of the Atlantic.
Bingley
Bingley
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#17588
01/30/2001 9:40 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
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Don't you find that those of us with English as our mother-tongue have a strong tendency to be lazy and/or unadventurous with unfamiliar foreign names?
I, for one, find it bordering on the insulting, that so many of us absolutely refuse to attempt personal names with (to our eyes) strange spellings.
A friend of mine in my student days (only fifteen years ago) was called "Ickie" by all of his contemporaries (he didn't like it, but put up with it) because they wouldn't attempt to say "Iftekhar". It is not a difficult word to pronounce - although when his family came to visit I realised that my own pronunciation of it had been less than perfect. But Iftekhar, himself, was always pleased that I at least made the attempt.
I have friends with Polish and Hungarian names, both of whom suffer in similar ways. "Jakomivcz" looks strange, sure, but it is actually very easy to say, and the person who bears it - proudly - is always very happy to explain how it should be pronounced.
Why does this rudeness continue, I wonder, in this age of increasing international contact?
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#17589
01/30/2001 12:33 PM
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,757
Carpal Tunnel
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on/NYes, I tend to do the same, Max – though mostly it will come out as N-vel-ope. My exception of course, is when it is en-VEL-up, as in: The chocolate pudding I shared with friends on Sunday was enveloped not only in fudge sauce but also creamy custard.  wow
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#17590
01/30/2001 1:28 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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Posts: 1,156 |
Don't you find that those of us with English as our mother-tongue have a strong tendency to be lazy and/or unadventurous with unfamiliar foreign names?
Yes and no.
I've been reading through my brother's lingustics textbook, and I came across discussions of importing words. Speakers of any language tend to subconsciously know the patterns which are "acceptable" in their language, and often adjust imported words to suit the "rules" of sound which are acceptable.
As an example I offer you "yogurt". This is originally a Turkish word, spelled identically but with a little line over the "g" (this is called "soft g"). This letter is not pronounced in Turkish, but just blurs the "O" and "U" sounds together so it sounds like "yo-oort" - similar to the French pronunciation of their version of the word. English speakers find this a difficult pattern to pronounce, and I guess since the "g" was there anyway (and we didn't know that the symbol above it softens it), we decided to pronounce the g and ended up with "yo-gurt".
This does happen in other languages. When we lived in Italy, my brother Daniel was generally referred to as "Daniele" (dan-ye-leh) because Italians prefer words to end in a vowel sound, and Daniele is the Italian version of his name. Also it seems the Italian word for "click" (as on a computer mouse) is "clic". It is not pronounced with the short "i" - this doesn't exist in Italian - but is prononouned "kleek" - since our letter "i" says "ee" in Italian.
In spite of all this, I like to try and pronounce my friends' ethnic names more or less accurately. I agree that it's annoying that most people don't really try, but I guess I can see why. Some names just don't follow the innate "patterns" which English-speaking people have grown up with. Still - I love having friends from other cultures - and I think we'd go farther at fostering some international understanding with a little effort!
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#17591
01/30/2001 2:05 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2001
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Well, I must nominate my own surname for the most-egregious-mispronounciation-by-a-single-person award. Here's the story:
I have a fairly simple surname, two syllables, spelled like it is pronounced. Except, it has a "z" in it; which seems to send people into catatonia.
My mother and father attended a high school together, and my father's best friend and my mother's best friend married. My parents were their wedding attendents, and vice versa. We grew up calling my parents' friends "aunt" and "uncle," and referred to their children as cousins. I was their older daughter's maid of honor. Their younger daughter married a cousin of mine, and now has the same surname. Despite all this -- friendship nearing 60 years' duration, close ties, a daughter and grandchildren with the surname, my "aunt" still mispronounces my surname!!!!!
How bad is that?
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#17592
01/30/2001 2:29 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Bean noted : Some names just don't follow the innate "patterns" which English-speaking people have grown up with. A gentleman named Kane (pr. Cane in English) was visiting Hawaii (part of the USA last time I looked)  and had need for a Doctor for a bad sunburn. He sat in a waiting room for about an hour and a half as one person after another was called. Finally he asked why he had not been called only to discover he had been called four times. The problem? The nurse had used the Hawaiian pronunciation for Kane : KA-nay. Live and learn. wow
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#17593
01/30/2001 3:50 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 1,289
veteran
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veteran
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Pronunciation tendencies
I tend to think there is more to this problem than tendencies. It has been shown often that children up to a certain age are capable of learning to speak another language with native fluency and without any accent. But at some point, usually the teens, if they learn a new language they may learn to understand and write with native fluency, but will always speak it with some degree of an accent. The older you are when you learn a language, the heavier your accent will be. Thus, it would seem that our vocal apparatus is conditioned from birth to our native tongue and unless a new language is learned early, it will not adapt to another. A case in point is French speakers. The most obvious trait of someone speaking English with a French accent is the inability to pronounce the "th" sound, which does not exist in French; or the inability of English speakers to pronounce the French 'u' or German 'ü' which does not exist in English.
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#17594
01/30/2001 4:47 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 87
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 87 |
Interesting note re Bobyoungbalt's post up there -
I am bilingual in English and German and I have found that the ability to speak German without an accent has aided me in pronouncing (How _does_ one spell that word emoticon!) words in other languages. To wit, my French still sounds American but the accent is softened some by my ability to pronouce "a" and "u" and even "r." Likewise, there are a few really challenging, for English-speakers, Persian words involving the sound "kh" and the guttural "gh." The Persian word for "frog" is my favorite - ghulbahreh (phonetically spelled!). I impressed my Iranian friends to no end when they discovered I could say that correctly!
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#17595
01/30/2001 4:58 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
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addict
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I have found that the ability to speak German without an accent has aided me in pronouncing (How _does_ one spell that word emoticon!) words in other languages.
I've had similar experiences with multiple languages. I am not a native Spanish speaker, but have studied it for many years and lived in a number of hispanophone countries. After spending some time while in college studying in Spain, I then went on to study in Italy (ah, I miss those days...). Throughout my time in Italy, I spoke Italian, sounded like a Spaniard due to my accent, and (with long blond hair at the time) looked more like a German. Nobody could figure me out, which was great fun.
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#17596
01/30/2001 5:12 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,773
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,773 |
The capacity of the brain to absorb new languages is extraordinary in the early developmental years, but the language center of the brain stabilizes at a certain age in childhood, making learning a new language much more difficult, including the pronunciation aspects. I'm forgetting the age at which this happens, but I'm pretty sure that it is before age 13 -- a perfect reason to teach foreign languages in the early grades, and not to wait until high school like most US schools do! Anyway, while looking in one of my books for the developmental capacity for languages, I stumbled on this interesting fact: we all know that language is primarily processed in the language center of the brain, don't we? Well, people who lived in Japan at an early age, whether genetically Japanese or not, process isolated vowel sounds predominately in the left hemisphere, while all others do so predominately in the right hemisphere. Significantly, in English and many other languages, it is impossible to compose a sentence without consonants, but it can be done in Japanese. The book, The Brain, Restak (Bantam Books, 1984) speculates why there are such differences between the philosophies of Japanese and western culture: "If Dr. Tsunoda's research is correct, the left hemisphere in the Japanese brain is concerned with things that are as important as logic is to a Westerner: intuition, indirection, and the creative use of space and sound. The sensitivity to these multiple components of human communication facilitates judgment about people and events that would be impossible to a person who relies on 'logic' alone.
Central to Dr. Tsuanoda's thesis is the importance of language as a determinant of brain organization, patterns of thinking, and ultimately culture. While Westerners allocate both their language and logical functions to the left hemisphere, with the nonverbal aspect of communication to the right hemisphere, the Japanese brain, in contrast, processes sounds and experiences relevant to emotion in the left hemisphere. The stimulus for the relegation to one hemisphere or the other, according to Dr. Tsunoda, is none other than language itself.
'I believe that the mother tongue differenciates the way in which people receive, process, feel, and understand sounds in the external environment,' says Dr. Tsunoda. 'The mother tongue is closely related to the development of the emotional mechanism in the brain. I conjecture that the mother tongue acquired in childhood is closely linked with the formation of the unique culture and mentality of each ethnic group.'"BTW, the only language other than English I've ever studied was Spanish, and when traveling in Germany, everyone mistook me for Italian. I think because I was the only one who could properly pronounce "pizza diabolo." 
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#17597
01/30/2001 6:36 PM
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 5,400
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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More about pronounciation-- the good doctors name-- Dr. Tsunoda's- has the TS-- which to people who haven't learned it in childhood -- sounds just like S-- but Suyuki and Tsuyuki in Japanese are as different as Brined and Blind-- words my Japanese brother- in -law "hears"(an pronounces) the same.--as brined
(or brineds-- as in "we got some venitain Brineds for the window.")-- but most adult learner of English (or Japanese) have trouble with one (or the other!)
Just as i can't say Tsuyuki right-- he has trouble with Blind/brined. This ability to hear certain sound used in a language disapears young-- before the age of five-- So my bi-lingual neice and nephew can both say their name, and say blinds! (or say brine-- when speaking about the taste of sea water)
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#17598
01/31/2001 9:18 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,146
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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A friend of mine was flying to New Zealand from Narita airport in Tokyo a couple of years ago. At the check-in counter the attendant gave him his boarding pass and his baggage chits and brightly invited him to "Have a nice fright!"
He wondered if her apparent mispronunciation was simple foresight a little later when the plane lost an engine half an hour out of Tokyo!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#17599
01/31/2001 5:26 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 328
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Posts: 328 |
On this morning's news broadcast, the anchor repeatedly pronounced the word "sentenced" (in the criminal sense) as something like "sed-inced" or "sen-inced." Also, I often hear people pronounce "appreciate" as "apprishiate." Just thought of another one-- I know some people who say "supposably" when they mean "supposedly." 
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#17600
01/31/2001 7:49 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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, I often hear people pronounce "appreciate" as "apprishiate." If you prefer "appreeseeate", then, for your own sake, don't come here! "Apprishiate" is more or less standard in NZ, get the pitcha?
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#17601
01/31/2001 9:33 PM
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,094 |
"Apprishiate" is more or less standard in NZ, get the pitcha?
That's pretty much the only way I've heard it pronounced, too.
Pennsylvania and Ohio are bordering states, so how is it possible that Rapunzel can't stand the only pronunciation I've heard?
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#17602
01/31/2001 9:39 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 544
addict
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addict
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Rapunzel (I think) wrote: I often hear people pronounce "appreciate" as "apprishiate."
Are you making the distinction between "ap-ree-shee-ate" and "ap-ri-shee-ate" (difference of how that first e is sounded, like an e or an i) or between the sounds of the "ci," see vs. shee?
I rarely hear anything but ap-ree-shee-ate as the pronunciation.
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#17603
01/31/2001 9:48 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
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In reply to:
Are you making the distinction between "ap-ree-shee-ate" and "ap-ri-shee-ate" (difference of how that first e is sounded, like an e or an i) or between the sounds of the "ci," see vs. shee?
I rarely hear anything but ap-ree-shee-ate as the pronunciation.
Now that makes sense! A-prish-iate would be vomitous. 
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#17604
01/31/2001 11:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 328
enthusiast
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enthusiast
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Are you making the distinction between "ap-ree-shee-ate" and "ap-ri-shee-ate"?Yes, I was. I should have made myself clearer. I consider the correct pronunciation to be "ap-ree-shee-ate," so "a-prish-iate" annoys me. Whew! Got it, everyone?
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#17605
02/01/2001 2:46 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96
journeyman
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journeyman
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 96 |
Apprishiate" is more or less standard in NZ, get the pitcha?
I live in Ohio also and that is the way I heard it pronounced---glad to hear that we would feel right at home among the New Zealanders. Because I think that is a fascinating country. Thanks Max and Jazz, for all the helpful info.
enthusiast
enthusiast
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#17606
02/01/2001 3:32 AM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 819
old hand
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old hand
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Another pesky pronunciation problem persists in the word, nuclear. Most everyone I hear in the US, and many Brits, say "new-kya-ler" instead of "nu-klee-er." Now, can someone give me a new, clear explanation as to why the fusion of these three syllables produces a fission of logical pronunciation? Does this word violate the learned vowel/consonant relationships of English?
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#17607
02/01/2001 3:57 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 3,409
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Most everyone I hear in the US, and many Brits, say "new-kya-ler" instead of "nu-klee-er."
Here in nuclear-free NZ (subtle plug emoticon), the "standard" pronunciation is "nyu-clear", though "nu-kya-ler" and "nyu-kya-ler" are very common as well. If we can't even say the word, how can we be trusted to use it? (With humblest apologies to Baron Rutherford of Nelson)
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#17608
02/01/2001 8:39 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618
addict
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addict
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The appreciate thing started me thinking. I'm lead to believe the correct pronounciation of nude (and all it's derivatives) is actually nyude, which I rarely hear from people younger than 60. Also, one of my patients said she was going to sue (pronounced syue) if anything went wrong. I then realised that a number of my Asian friends pronounce tune and tumour as toon and toomour. Anyone else noticed this?
Rapport was established superficially.
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#17609
02/01/2001 8:47 AM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 618
addict
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Which is correct? A long or a short i sound? And while we're at it, is the cc in capuccino pronounced as an s or a ch?
Rapport was established superficially.
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#17610
02/01/2001 9:13 AM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 315
enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Mar 2000
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IIIIIIIIItalian! - We don't have short I.
Cappuccino - cci is like chee(se), similar to a sneeze. In fact, the onomatopeic way of writing a sneeze is
ecci' .
Ciao
Emanuela
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#17611
02/01/2001 11:04 AM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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In fact, the onomatopeic way of writing a sneeze is
ecci' That explains something that has bothered me for a while! It is now obvious to me that Jacob Epstein wished to call one of his sculptures simply, "Man" but, in the dust filled atmosphere of his studio, when he unveiled the masterpiece to awe-filled journalists, he actually said "Ecci!! - homo." Most unusually, the journalists got it all wrong, and thought he had used the Latin for "Behold! The Man!"
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#17612
02/01/2001 12:03 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
Posts: 11,613
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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can someone give me a new, clear explanation as to why the fusion of these three syllables produces a fission of logical pronunciation? Does this word violate the learned vowel/consonant relationships of English?
G-r-o-a-n-n-n! C'mere a minute, sweet Geoff--I want to
violate U! 238 times.
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#17613
02/01/2001 12:35 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Just so long as he doesn't become depleted!!
Then none of us dare go near him.
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#17614
02/01/2001 1:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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Again, in my brother's linguistics book, they seemed to indicate that the British pronunciation of words like "nude" and "sue" have the "y" sound in there, like "nyude" and "syue". The book also indicated that the North American pronunciation is likely to be "nood" and "soo". Any Brits care to confirm/deny that? It helps to hear it from the horse's...keyboard(?)...
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#17615
02/01/2001 1:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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In English it's with a short i. The Italiano version described by emanuela is what we would call a long E. The eye-talian version is normally considered substandard, at least here in US'n land.
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#17616
02/01/2001 1:10 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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The lovely thing about Italian is that once you know the rules, you can't help but pronounce a word correctly, with the possible exception of the accentuation of the syllables. I have a huge list of hated mispronunciations accumulating (of course I can only think of three right now). My "favourite" bastardizations of Italian words: bruschetta - "broo-shetta", should be "broo-sketta" espresso - "ekspresso", should be "espresso" (Where's the X?) Ross Rebagliati - "reb-lee-ati" should be "Re-bal-yati" (as close as I can spell it - there is no "gli" sound in English) (That's the Canadian snowboarder from the Nagano olympics who got in trouble for having pot in his system.) Argh! Is all I can say...
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#17617
02/01/2001 1:19 PM
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 13,803
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Not so new and maybe not so clear, but.
M-W on line lists 22 words ending in clear, all of them derived from either clear itself or nuclear. It lists 105 words ending in cular, most, if not all, of them of a scientific nature. The preponderance of words ending in cular overwhelms poor little nuclear which is forced to submit to the will of the majority and convert.
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#17618
02/01/2001 1:26 PM
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 3,439
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Why or why, pray tell, do announcers who should know better (that is hosts of classical music programs) persist in pronouncing Mozart as Mote-zart instead of Mo-zart?
Or have I been saying it improperly for lo these many years? (Awaiting enlightenment from our German friends emoticon)
wow
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#17619
02/01/2001 1:29 PM
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Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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But...as a physicist...I must struggle to keep the "proper" pronunciation alive...
It comes from "nucleus". It would mean "of the nucleus". Thus "nuclear". Just like "stellar" = "of the stars" (where stellaris is star in Latin).
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#17620
02/01/2001 3:08 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,204
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Aug 2000
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in pronouncing Mozart as Mote-zart instead of Mo-zart?
I, also, used the same pronunciation that you favour, wow, for many, many years. My Afrikaans-speaking friend at Oxford slapped my wrist (literally, not metaphorically!) every time I did so, and insisted it was Mo -tzart. Indeed, when I started to learn German (also at Oxford), I was taught that the letter "z" was pronounced "tz."
So - I now call Wolfgang, the beloved of God, "Mo-tzart" and I guess shall do so for the rest of my natural.
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