#15339
01/11/2001 7:42 PM
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If this is a YART, let me know, as it seems like you all would have been down this road before, but I wanted to air a peeve of mine.
I hear people saying and writing "acronym" when they mean "abbreviation" so often it drives me mad.
Is the view of the wordies present that an acronym is itself a word, composed of the initial letters of a series of words (e.g. scuba = self-contained underwater breathing apparatus), and that an abbreviation is imply the initial letters, lined up and pronounced individually (e.g. PC = personal computer, and is not pronounced 'pik')?
/rant
As a side not to this, English seems to limit itself in terms of acronym formation more than other languages I'm familiar with. Spanish is great for taking as many letters from the front of a word as it needs to make a pronounceable acronym, where English almost always seems to only take the first letter.
As an example, PROFEPA stands for Procuraduría Federal de Protección Ambiental (a Mexican government agency - Attorney General for Environmental Protection). The acronym uses three letters of the first word, two letters of the second, and one from each of the last two, in order to be pronounceable in Spanish.
Perhaps this stems from the fact the English has so many different pronunciations of letters, based on what they're next to, combined with, etc., that English-speakers can always just take a go at pronouncing it, whereas Spanish has basically one sound for each letter. Dunno.
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#15340
01/11/2001 8:10 PM
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Hyla asks: Is the view of the wordies present that an acronym is itself a word?
Or at least something pronounceable. Some were abbreviations first and only later became words. Scuba is a good example as is radar, (RAdio Detection And Ranging) and laser. The OED supplement even recognizes the back-formed verb lase. In the area of local NYS government SEQR stands for State Environmental Quality Review and is pronounced [seeker]. The ones I like are acronyms in which the first word of the expansion is the same as the abbreviation. NEAR stands for Near Earth Asteroid Rendezvous.
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#15341
01/11/2001 8:54 PM
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Those of us in the IT industry daily have to pick out what an acronym stands for from the context. The feasible limits (particularly of the TLA - three-letter acronym) have been reached and we're now recycling them, often before the first use has been abandoned. Sometimes these multiple definitions fall within the same area of IT and can be used adjacently. It was suggested once that to combat this IT people need to adopt a tonal variation of English where you pitch your vocalisation of a TLA at a particular tone for each specific meaning. 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#15342
01/11/2001 8:59 PM
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speaking to Hyla's point, it would seem that TLA would be an abbreviation, rather than being self-referential (unless you have some clever pronunciation for TLA). 
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#15343
01/11/2001 9:02 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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Thank you, Hyla, for picking up on something that has mildly irritated me for years.
Strictly speaking, I think and acronym should be a set of initials that spell a word already in the lexicon, but I am quite prepared to accept the term for pronounceable words - especailly if they then become accepted as words in their own right.
But a list of initials is a list of initials - not even really an abbreviation.
/rant
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#15344
01/11/2001 9:16 PM
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In reply to:
But a list of initials is a list of initials - not even really an abbreviation.
What about morphing lists of initials? I'm tthinking of "words" like "scuzzie" for SCSI. Then there's wysiwyg, which sounds like it could be an enquiry into a man's political affiliation.
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#15345
01/11/2001 9:25 PM
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enthusiast
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I think you'd do better to save yourselves the angst and get used the misuse - it's entrenched. Move onto a bigger battle.
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#15346
01/11/2001 10:10 PM
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Strictly speaking, I think and acronym should be a set of initials that spell a word already in the lexicon, but I am quite prepared to accept the term for pronounceable words
At the risk of picking nits, I'd say there are some pretty well-established acronyms (scuba, radar, laser) that have become words in the lexicon, but that would not have qualified as acronyms under your description. I guess I want to see acronym used properly because I really like the creation of a word in such a way, and its meaning is lessened when it applies to any abbreviation.
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#15347
01/11/2001 10:56 PM
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I think you'd do better to save yourselves the angst and get used the misuse - it's entrenched. Move onto a bigger battle.I do hate painful truths like this. Aren't most of the battles that we discuss on this board fairly small individually, but add up to a larger war against garbage usage? (A bit dramatic a metaphor ) On the side note I raised in my original post, about how different languages form acronyms - any experience people have in other languages with this?
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#15348
01/12/2001 12:32 AM
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>how different languages form acronyms - any experience people have in other languages with this?
Hello again Hyla,
More as an aside than anything else, I seem to recall my French teacher explaining that the model designations of Citroens of the era (at least a couple of them, anyway - I don't know if the company continued the practice, or even if the company continued!) formed words when the letters were pronounced (in French of course!):
ID = idée [ee-day] = idea
DS = déesse [day-ess]= goddess
I have heard similar stories about car models in English, eg SX is meant to sound like "sex" (the word, not the activity!), although I would have thought it's Essex!
But I guess these don't qualify as acronyms, since the ploy relies on pronouncing the individual letters not the "word" thus formed, and they aren't formed from the initial letters of words, as far as I know.
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#15349
01/12/2001 12:46 AM
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Hyla asked different languages form acronyms - any experience people have in other languages with this?
I remember being surprised when I finally learned, in my early twenties that the "Alfa" in "Alfa Romeo" is an acronym. Since my Italian is worse than my English, I'll leave to it Emanuela to give the deails.
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#15350
01/12/2001 1:27 AM
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MaxQ contributes: "scuzzie" for SCSI
PCMCIA is, I believe, normally pronounced pee-cee-em-cee-aye-ay, but where I work we had a period when we were pronouncing it pick-mick-ee-uh. We still do occasionally. In a similar vein, ASCII is pronounced ass-key.
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#15351
01/12/2001 2:00 AM
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Faldage offered In a similar vein, ASCII is pronounced ass-key.But of course. How else would one say it?  What, though, should one call such adaptations?
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#15352
01/12/2001 2:16 PM
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My favorite IT acronym is TWAIN--many of you with scanners will might have come accross TWAIN--
which is short for Technology Without Any Interesting Name.
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#15353
01/12/2001 3:21 PM
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I especially like NOAA (pronounced Noah like the ark builder) for National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration.
Pretty and particularly apt I would say.
wow
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#15354
01/12/2001 3:29 PM
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Acronyms in other languages
Italians are fond of acronyms, especially in regard to govenment & politics. I subscribe to a newsletter in Italian which comes on the net daily and am often at sea because of the acronyms for political parties (of which the Italians have a large supply) and govt. agencies (even larger supply). Many of these do not appear to be pronouncible, but I know that they are pronounced as words, not as a string of letters.
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#15355
01/12/2001 3:33 PM
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Not sure about the Alfa, but Fiat stands for (oh I hope I have this right) something like Federazion International Automobile Tourino. It had never dawned on me that it was an acronym, since it was commonly spelled Fiat instead of FIAT. In looking at the words for FIAT I know they aren't right, but it's something like that.
TEd
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#15356
01/12/2001 4:12 PM
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She of the profession that launched a thousand acronyms proclaims: My favorite IT acronym is TWAIN--many of you with scanners will might have come accross TWAIN--
which is short for Technology Without Any Interesting Name.
My favourite has been and remains WYSIWYG, pronounced "wizeewig". "What You See Is What You Get". I sometimes think it's IT's only meaningful contribution to the language.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#15357
01/12/2001 5:49 PM
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CapK plagiaristically opined My favourite has been and remains WYSIWYG, pronounced "wizeewig". "What You See Is What You Get". I sometimes think it's IT's only meaningful contribution to the language.[petulant harumphing emoticon] Yes, and meanwhile, my little foray into TEd's pundom with WYSIWYG has gone completely unremarked upon. And this after publicly exposing myself simply to offer you a palliative - what a disgraceful injustice!
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#15358
01/12/2001 6:03 PM
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Regarding my comment on the pronounciation of ASCII, MaxQ ponders: "But of course. How else would one say it?
It's the question of a C before an I which should be prononuced as an S, giving us ass-see or ass-eye.
Another problem I run into when I am wearing my proofreader's hat is whether a pronounceable abbreviation is pronounced as a word or with its letters when the initial letter is one in which is pronounced with a vowel sound but represents a consonant sound, e.g., HID (Human Interface Device). I'll see that in an engineer's report as a HID or an HID, sometimes both ways in the same engineer's report. That means I have to track down a representative cross section of engineers to tell me whether it's pronounced [hid] or [aitch-eye-dee]
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#15359
01/12/2001 6:18 PM
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Max: Sorry, didn't see your contribution to WYSIWYG. Would not have stolen your thunder if I had, I would have attributed it to you. My opinion remains ... Faldage: If you use 4-bit encoding for ASCII instead of 7 or 8, and also use your proclaimed correction pronunciation, would that make the acronym half-assed? 
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#15360
01/12/2001 7:34 PM
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In reply to:
FIAT
Fabbrica Italiana d"Automobili di Torino
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#15361
01/12/2001 9:11 PM
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In reply to:
FIAT
Fabbrica Italiana d"Automobili di Torino
And for anybody interested:
The Darracq factory that had been built in the Portello district of Milan was then sold to a group of Italian car enthusiasts who called themselves the 'Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili' (ALFA) in 1910.
Oh, and YAY ME!
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#15362
01/12/2001 10:07 PM
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#15363
01/13/2001 1:32 AM
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>[petulant harumphing emoticon] Yes, and meanwhile, my little foray into TEd's pundom with WYSIWYG has gone completely unremarked upon
Ah, not unnoticed, but unremarked upon. And now, the rest of this tory.
TEd
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#15364
01/13/2001 5:29 AM
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In reply to:
And for anybody interested:
The Darracq factory that had been built in the Portello district of Milan was then sold to a group of Italian car enthusiasts who called themselves the 'Anonima Lombarda Fabbrica Automobili' (ALFA) in 1910.
Well, hmmm, ummm, actually, no, we weren't, very. Well, ahhhh, maybe just a little ... nope, not at all, as a matter of fact!   Unless, of course, it comes with a complimentary Maranello ...
And I'm glad to see you've managed to kick your habit!
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#15365
01/13/2001 7:20 AM
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Pooh-Bah
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>Well, hmmm, ummm, actually, no, we weren't, very. Well, ahhhh, maybe just a little ... nope, not at all ...
Ahem, ahem ... I was interested she squeaked!
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#15366
01/13/2001 3:20 PM
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#15367
01/13/2001 6:05 PM
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In reply to:
IITYWYBMAD is the acronym for this thread.
It's too early on a Sunday morning for my tired brain - I give up!
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#15368
01/13/2001 9:19 PM
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Poster: Max Quordlepleen
Subject: Re: anybody interested
In reply to:
IITYWYBMAD is the acronym for this thread.
It's too early on a Sunday morning for my tired brain - I give up!
If I tell you, will you buy me a drink?
wow
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#15369
01/13/2001 9:54 PM
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Joined: Mar 2000
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If I tell you, will you buy me a drink?
wow
OIYBMASMIR
lusy (home is the hunter)
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#15370
01/14/2001 12:56 AM
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WBL-LTNS!
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#15371
01/14/2001 2:17 AM
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member
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Tnx Max
IGTBB. In fact IBGTBB!
lusy
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#15372
01/14/2001 3:22 AM
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lusy, oh, my sweet lusy, I'll buy you any drinks you want!
I am SO GLAD you're back! ILY!
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#15373
01/14/2001 3:12 PM
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Sorry I mentioned it. [sigh] Any enthusiast-or-above regular posting board member who travels to my neighborhood is assured of a drink bought by your truly. Have to have a cut-off or I'd be over the hill to the Poor House.  wow
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#15374
01/14/2001 3:36 PM
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old hand
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old hand
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Any enthusiast-or-above regular posting board member who travels to my neighborhood is assured of a drink bought by your truly.Even if we're under 21?
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#15375
01/14/2001 4:08 PM
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is assured of a drink bought by your truly.
Even if we're under 21? Water is a drink. Over 21-year-olds may put single malt in it or whatever else takes their fancy. As to fruit : in the words of the great Tallulah Bankhead, when observed having an Old Fashioned for breakfast, "Dahhhling ...all that fruit! It's so good for you." However, I draw the line at little umbrellas. wow
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#15376
01/14/2001 5:00 PM
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However, I draw the line at little umbrellas.
I had a lady friend once who had the irritating habit of collecting those damned things. It was irritating mainly because they usually only come in very expensive cocktails ... and in those days going Dutch was not the usual thing.
The idiot also known as Capfka ...
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#15377
01/14/2001 6:42 PM
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Pooh-Bah
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>Even if we're under 21?
Cultural aside here:
I find it really strange that it is not possible to buy alcohol under the age of 21 in the USA (I thought it was only California but now I am told that it is everywhere.) Does this mean that if you are under 21 and had your wedding reception in a bar open to the public (less usual these days but not all that rare) then you would not be able drink at your own wedding? By that age you would have been allowed to vote, carry a gun, go to prison, drive a car, have a baby?
Does this mean that is possible to go through university without an alcoholic drink? To me, this is inconceivable. (I include Budweiser here as I am told that it does contain alcohol.) How on earth to people manage not to break the law?
Bemused of Essex
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#15378
01/14/2001 8:07 PM
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Not breaking the law is not an option...(for those who wish) I don't believe I have ever been to a public wedding (I've performed at quite a lot), however, "the spirit of the law" is generally followed by the "authorities" (or you would have a mob action) You forgot the most impotent "go to war" (so your alcoholic half-uncle can beat his wife in peace... (did I say that?(waking up confused emoticon))) JK (just-kidding)
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