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old hand
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I wuz t'inkin' aboot these two werds recently.
First of all, what does y'all prefer or use most often?
Second of all, how does y'all use each?
What I was thinking specifically, was of how to refer to each. If you're talking about a new activity, how do the prepositions, ahem, fall?
"I'm starting a new class in the fall"
and
"I'm starting a new class in autumn"
both sound right to me, whereas
"I'm starting a new class in fall"
and
"I'm starting a new class in the autumn"
both grate on my ear. What do y'all think?
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old hand
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Well, this one's easy - I NEVER use "fall" for the season between Summer and Winter.
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Carpal Tunnel
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I would say "I'm starting a new class in the autumn."
I never use fall to refer to the season.
Bingley
Bingley
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Pooh-Bah
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Same as sjm and Bingley.
I would almost certainly not say "... in autumn." I would use either "the autumn" or "this autumn."
PS I might drop the article if I used the phrase to start a sentence - "In autumn, when the leaves are red,/ I'm rarely seen to bare my head: In Spring, when leaves are turning green, My doffed hat shows my bare head's sheen./"
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Pooh-Bah
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That puts it very well. In a nutshell. And a pretty little verse to exemplify the principle! 
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Carpal Tunnel
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Our cousins in the USA
Have words that only they would say ~
When autumn's glory drops as 'fall'
Keats' legions listen in appal!
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Carpal Tunnel
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>Keats' legions listen in appal!
this USn is appalled that you've taken such a fall!
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Carpal Tunnel
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yeahbut® I wanted to spell it apple.. ;)
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Carpal Tunnel
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Gratuitous USn bashing aside, I would say:
"I'm starting a new class in the fall"
or
"I'm starting a new class in the autumn"
I would probably reserve the articleless "in fall/autumn" for speaking generically of the season and use the article when speaking of a specific fall/autumn.
In fall I like to jump into piles of leaves.
In the fall, I'll be covering the Ithaca Bombers fall baseball season.
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Carpal Tunnel
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formerly known as etaoin...
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Carpal Tunnel
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"Autumn" because it's a prettier word and also specific - the season between the atumnal equiox and the winter solstice (High Priestesses have to be concerned about that sort of thing)- and fall has many meanings and it sort of demeans a beautiful season.
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Carpal Tunnel
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When I tried to look up "fall" in my dictionary, it took me three tries before I could find the definition of the season, there was such a long list of other mneanings.
In New England, there is such a preponderance of deciduous trees that the change of foliage from green to barren is very striking. People there say "fall" much more often than autumn, which is used for the time when the leaves are changing color, due to production of a red colored substitute for chlorophyll.
Here in Southern California, there is no fall, just a moderate change in the number of green leaves. Only a few
trees show bare limbs. But there isn't any autumn, either.
Never any pretty colored red and yellow leaves. And roses bloom the year round, just less spectacular between summer and spring.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Bill is correct about New England; up here in Vermont, the "Fall Foliage" season is huge tourist business. Autumn is used, but tends to be a bit upper-crusty... used for naming B & B's, restaurants, etc. one of my favorite songs, however, is called "Vermont is Afire in the Autumn". it is a truly beautiful time of year.
formerly known as etaoin...
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Carpal Tunnel
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I refer to autumn as fall almost exclusively in conversation around here in somewhat south Virginia.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear WW: remember Edith Piaf singing "the autumn leaves fall past my window..." Damn, how I wish my goofy nerve deafness didn't make all music sound out of tune.
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Pooh-Bah
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Damn, how I wish my goofy nerve deafness didn't make all music sound out of tune.
Piaf ... she must have kept the French clothes peg manufacturers busy ...
And, like sjm, I have never consciously used "fall" as a synonym for "autumn". Very much a merikanism. Oh, and Canadian too, I suppose.
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Never thought of fall, the season, as peculiar to the US, but, along with WW, I use it almost exclusively, especially in conversation. Autumn somehow seems more formal.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear Capfka: If you haven't seen it, it's hard to imagine how suddenly the trees become leafless, and you have dead leaves six inches deep, a seerious fire hazard that must be taken up quickly, or the fire department will have it done for you and send you a big fat bill. I can remember a Halloween, when kids setting fire to leaves in gutters set fire to three or more parked cars. Great sport.
Autumn foliage is beautiful, but Fall leaf raking is a real pain.
Dear Piaf sounded so vulnerable and defenseless, every male who heard her had his protective impulses activated.
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Carpal Tunnel
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Fall, (meaning autumn) used to be used in UK, but if fell into disuse in the mid 1600's.. just a english settlers were moving to New England and Virginia, and so on.. Cut off from (then) current fashions, the new world speakers of english continued to use Fall; Autumn prevailed in Old world.
both words are now known to both old world and new world english speakers, but autumn prevail in UK and in areas settles long after fall became unfashionable, Fall more common in US and Canada. (bill byson covers it in full in one of his books on english)
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old hand
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>Never thought of fall, the season, as peculiar to the US, Rest assured that it, along with much else USn is very peculiar indeed. Seriously, though, can one of the boffins confirm or ciorrect an understanding I have that "fall" for the season is one of those archaicisms left over when relations soured post-Tea Party? I seem to recall reading that Willy and his contemporaries used it, and that autumn is a more recent addition to English EDIT: Whoops! Looks like I mantled helen inside a couple of posts - Me Max culpable.
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fall (v.) - O.E. feallan (class VII strong verb; past tense feoll, pp. feallen), from P.Gmc. *fallanan (cf. O.N. falla, O.H.G. fallan), from PIE base *phol- "to fall" (cf. Armenian p'ul "downfall," Lith. puola "to fall," O.Prus. aupallai "finds," lit. "falls upon"). Noun sense of "autumn" (now only in U.S.) is 1664, short for fall of the leaf (1545). That of "cascade, waterfall" is from 1579. Most of the figurative senses had developed in M.E. Meaning "to be reduced" (as temperature) is from 1658. To fall in love is 1530; to fall asleep is 1393. Fall guy is from 1906. Fallout "radioactive particles" is from 1950. Fallen "morally ruined" is from 1628.http://www.etymonline.com/f1etym.htmautumn - c.1380, from O.Fr. autumpne, from L. autumnus, a word probably of Etruscan origin. Harvest was the Eng. name for the season until autumn began to displace it 16c. In Britain, the season is popularly August through October; in U.S., September through November.
http://www.etymonline.com/a7etym.htm
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old hand
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I thank y'all....I figured "fall" was more in use in North America, and "autumn" was more a UK usage. I like "autumn" better somehow, but I do seem to use the two words interchangeably, thereby continuing to tread water in mid-Atlantic language mode.
As far as the articles go, I liked your point, Faldage - tending to use "the" when referring to a specific season and dropping it when referring to the season generically. Good distinction, and one I prolly make myself if I'd stopped to think about it.
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OK, so what Mav found is the correct details that i almost got right.. until 1664 (and that a record date for the use of the word in source it was most likely in spoken use long before that,) the season was 'harvest', but then fall began to be used (Noun sense of "autumn" (now only in U.S.) is 1664), and about the same time, autumn began to be used as well, (Harvest was the Eng. name for the season until autumn began to displace it 16c)
so both Fall and Autumn started to displace Harvest at the same time englanders were moving to NE. (mid 1600's) Fall won out here, (but we also know autumn) Autumn won out in UK, (and the meaning of Fall as a season was lost in UK)
Harvest is still used in a festive sense -- Harvest moon, and Harvest festivals and what not --well it is here, i presume its also used in UK as as well.
so i got the gist of right, and sjm posted almost at the same time (not a mantle, dear, just proof that great minds do think alike!) and Mav got down and dirty and gave us the facts!
in the book Year of Wonder, set in 1663, the narrator calls the time of year 'leaf fall' and harvest. She uses 'leaf fall' as chapter heading, and both words in the text. i didn't include 'leaf fall' as interesting word, because i thought it too common and well known.
While those in UK and up under don't use Fall, and we USer's don't use 'lorry', i think they represent words we we know, even if we don't generally use them.
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A long time ago we discussed the American penchant for altering English books to avoid straining their kiddies' brains. Does Mr. Tumnus in The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe become Mr. Al?
Bingley
Bingley
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Idiotic to change English books. Just my opinion. At the best, footnotes could be provided.
Here's a personal aside:
Although I haven't been able to confirm this with a reputable source, the questionable sources for name derivation show that my own name, Theresa, originally meant 'The Harvester.' I like this, especially since my astrological sign is Virgo, also a harvester. No, I don't believe in astrology in any way.
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Fall leaf raking is a real pain.
Not now, Bill! The Yard Man comes and runs a little machine over the lawn and gobbles up all the leaves into a bag on the back of the machine which he empties and carts off to the dump.
Or
People have "leaf blowers" sort of reverse vaacums that blow the leaves into a big pile that is is placed in biodegradable bags and put out for the annual autumn collection.
As for leaf burning. No more that marvelous smell of burning leaves! Permits are needed for outdoor fires now aand the Fire Dept gets very shirty and douses the pile with water...charges you ... and then what a mess to clean up wet soggy charred leaves. Yuck.
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Pooh-Bah
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When I moved from Kamloops in the interior (borderline desert) to the coastal rainforest I wondered why everyone was so obsessive about raking leaves right away. Until I discovered that instead of the marvellous scrunch of autumn leaves underfoot in the fall there was a slippery squelsh. I still walk in the leaves when I can find the crisp dry ones. Who cares if people stare!
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Carpal Tunnel
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Dear wow: I saw a leaf vacuum a long time ago, but it had a problem about getting jammed too often. I suppose in the meantime they have improved them, but I haven't seen one.
The blowing idea is stupid. It just moves the leaves slowly from one place to another, and the next breezed undoes the work.
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down and dirty
yep, I was only confirming your membrance, Helen - plus I thought the dates of a few of the other fall usages were quite illuminating too.
But where they get that crap about UK English autumns referring to AUGUST I just have no idea! ~ I would have said anyone in the UK is likely to place that month as high summer, and autumn starting in September but. Anyone confirm or affirm otherwise?
But the more I think about this issue of prepositions, the more confusimicatedified I get... 'in Spring a young man's fancy' (example of the generic concept of all spring seasons) yet 'In the autumn I dislike the darkening evenings'... 'In winter I eat chilli' yet 'In the autumn I get chilly'... 'Autumn is a cruel time for digging potatoes' yet 'The autumn is one of my favo(u)rite times of year'...
and when I try to make sense of any possible patterns in other forms, such as referring to a week or the week ~ argh!
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old hand
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But where they get that crap about UK English autumns referring to AUGUST I just have no idea! ~ I would have said anyone in the UK is likely to place that month as high summer, and autumn starting in September but. Anyone confirm or affirm otherwise?
Well, your description fits the pattern here -August is the nadir of winter, and Spring starts in September.
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Autumn is September, October and November for sure in England. Autumn term begins on the 5th of September. More often than not though weatherwise it is brighter first week of September than throughout August. We tend to get a stunning week in May, a good five days in July and then for two weeks September is cooler and gloriously sunny. The rest of the time it rains, it is just warmer rain in the summertime. Well, in Manchester anyway, but then it always rains in Manchester so it's probably not representative. Whatever the weather however ( that rolls off the tongue), it is always Autumn in September when the harvest moon hangs low in the sky.
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Spring Equinox March 20-23 Summer Solstice June 20-23 Autumnal Equinox Sept.20-23 Winter Solstice Dec, 20-23 Candlemas (also called Imbolc or St Bridget's Day) Feb. 2 Beltane May 1 Lammas Aug. 1 Samhain Oct. 31 For more in depth http://www.equinox-and-solstice.comor just Google "equinox/solstice" And on a musical note: try humming "Autumn in New York" and follow with "Moonlight in Vermont" <chuckle, chuckle>
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Spring Equinox March 20-23
Summer Solstice June 20-23
Autumnal Equinox Sept.20-23
Winter Solstice Dec, 20-23that is, for us Northunuhs... 
formerly known as etaoin...
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old hand
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Spring Equinox March 20-23
Summer Solstice June 20-23
Autumnal Equinox Sept.20-23
Winter Solstice Dec, 20-23
that is, for us Northunuhs..
Thanks, eta. It's nice to see at least one bottom-dweller remember us Upworlders.
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One tries and tries .......Sigh
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One part of the Fall leaf ritual that can't be forgotten was when, as kids, we used to rake all the leaves in the yard into huge piles and then merrily jump into them till they were blasted all apart again. Then we'd rake 'em back up and start jumping again. It sure was fun!
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If Ever I Would Leave You
Music by Frederick Loewe and Words by Alan Jay Lerner
from the Broadway musical "Camelot"
If ever I would leave you, it wouldn't be in summer
Seeing you in summer, I never would go
Your hair streaked with sunlight, your lips red as flame
Your face with a luster that puts gold to shame
But if I'd ever leave you, it couldn't be in autumn
How I'd leave in autumn, I never will know
I've seen how you sparkle when fall nips the air
I know you in autumn and I must be there
And could I leave you running merrily through the snow
Or on a wintry evening when you catch the fire's glow
If ever I would leave you, how could it be in springtime
Knowing how in spring I'm bewitched by you so
Oh, no, not in springtime, summer, winter, or fall
No never could I leave you at all
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