#99483
03/26/2003 2:38 PM
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I recently got the following in an email from one of the organizations with which I have a tenuous enough relationship to have an email address:
For the past two years, the largest number of bias crimes and incidents reported to XXXXXXX has been related to sexual identity and orientation.
…to help lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and questioning students…
A) Whadda y'all think, is the largest number … has correct? I.e., is the largest number singular?
and
2) How about questioning students? Anyone want to vent on that one?
Just giving y'all something else to kvetch about
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#99484
03/26/2003 4:01 PM
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,156
old hand
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old hand
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I vote for "have". As for the questioning students, it sounds like they have their hand up at the back of a nuclear physics class. I doubt if that's what they mean!
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#99485
03/26/2003 4:01 PM
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Joined: Aug 2000
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Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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I s'pose it depends on whether the subject is "number" or "crimes". If the former, then "has" is OK, if the latter, then it sould be "have". So far as I kin woik out, the subject is actually "number." But it is just possible that I'm wrong. there is precedent - I was wrong fifteen years, two months and a few days ago. I remember it well. 
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#99486
03/26/2003 4:09 PM
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the subject is actually "number."
Oh, the subject is "number" right enough. Onliest thang, it's plural by meaning.
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#99487
03/26/2003 4:22 PM
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I think an ellipsis is involved, and how you fill in the ellpsis is what determines whether it is singular or plural.
If you think number, it is singular. If you think people,it is plural.
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#99488
03/26/2003 4:35 PM
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I would go with 'has'.
A number is only the numerical figue assigned to bias crimes in the report. The largest number could be 1 or 365. In either case, it wouldn't matter. It would still be 'has' since by qulaifying it as the 'largest', it is being SINGLED out amongst many other such.
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#99489
03/26/2003 4:48 PM
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If the largest number were (that'd be the subjunctive were), say, 17, would that number 17 be related to sexual identity and orientation? Or would it be the 17 crimes and incidents?
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#99490
03/26/2003 4:57 PM
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Went back and read the first post, Faldage.
The main heading appears to be bias crimes and incidents; and under this category, is the class of crimes related to sexual identity and orientaion.
So, if the largest number were to be 17, that would apply to the ones related to sexual identity and orientation.
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#99491
03/26/2003 5:00 PM
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Posts: 555
addict
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To my mind. the superlative adjective largest, is here being applied to ONE number and therefore it has to be 'has'
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#99492
03/26/2003 10:45 PM
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the largest number...has been related to sexual identity and orientation.
The word number is interesting because it can take a plural verb as in the following passage:
"Events were well underway at the Greek Fest when the storm cloud broke. Many ran to their cars parked across from Brown's Island; others gathered under scattered tents. A good number were so put out with the weather, yet so emboldened by much wine tasting, that they demanded refunds from the Save Our City Committee."
Let's rephrase that to: "The largest number were so put out with the weather that they demanded refunds." I think that's a good example of a seemingly singular word requiring a plural verb even with the superlative 'largest' used.
At first I thought the number in Faldage's paste would take a singular verb--but the more I broke the sentence down and thought about what it really meant, the more number appeared to require a plural verb.
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#99493
03/27/2003 11:54 AM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Um, WW, I think that "a number were" is either plain wrong or is a mistaken attempt at the subjunctive.
- Pfranz
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#99494
03/27/2003 12:02 PM
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I think it's clear that, whatever the form of the words in the sentence, the real life entity being indicated by the subject of the sentence is plural. Not unlike "Arsenal were overwhelming in their game against Manchester United yesterday."
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#99495
03/27/2003 3:32 PM
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To rephrase the issue - is there not a well-defined rule (assuming you believe in rules for language use) as to the preference for a singular or plural verb when the subject is a collective noun? I know I use the singular predicate in that context. As a rule.
I would acknowledge "Arsenal were overwhelming" as an example of "Britspeak," but technically I would say that it should be one team, not many members.
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#99496
03/27/2003 3:45 PM
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USns does it by form with team names. E.g., UConn was successful in the NCAA tournament this year again. The Huskies were winners in the last three consecutive tournaments.
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#99497
03/28/2003 12:52 PM
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pfranz, I've sent off a question about the possibility plurality of the word number to a grammar guru. Will report back here about the verdict. My gut response is number can take a plural verb under specific circumstances--but I could be wrong. I'll be interested in what the guru writes back--and she will write back within the next week. She's a good guru. 
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#99498
03/28/2003 6:15 PM
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Pranz, Although I haven't heard from the grammar guru, I did check out MW--and there is this application in which number takes the plural verb: "(3) : an indefinite usually large total < a number of members were absent> <the number of elderly is rising" Now, if "of members" was understood, you'd still write "a number were absent." I think my little story about people at the Greek festival with some doing one thing during the storm and others doing something else is a good example where you could write that a number (of those people) were doing something else. The singular verb would sound horrible. "Many went to tents; some ran home; a number was busy complaining to the management." Yecch! "A number were busy complaining to the management." [And, FTR, I wasn't beginning to suggest an application of the subjunctive! ]
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#99499
03/28/2003 10:35 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,624
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Don't much care what your "guru" comes up with, the "number" itself is a modifier of the noun it enumerates, and the noun is what modifies the verb. Your guru can't change that!
If you were bad enough at writing that you said "a number were", you're actually saying "a number (of things) were". The verb is modified by the noun, implied or otherwise. The word "number" has no magic attached to it!
- Pfranz
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#99500
03/28/2003 11:33 PM
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A number of members were absent
The number of elderly is rising
WW, this example I think, sums up the argument quite effectively. It appears to me, that the article ahead of, 'number of' is important to the determination of the plurality of the verb.
Thus,
'THE number of', is used with a singular verb and,
'A number of', is used with a plural verb.
Using the example above, if the article is THE, then the noun, NUMBER determines the verb. 'The number of', is a singular collective noun. Whereas, if the article is A, then the noun MEMBERS, will qualify the verb.
To my mind, therefore, the 'of members' part of the sentence cannot be left to be understood, since, it is an important determinant of the state of the verb.
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#99501
03/29/2003 12:24 AM
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Pfranz ([Phaedra] wants Ćnigma),
Are you one of those people who say "one of those people who is"??
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#99502
03/29/2003 12:40 AM
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Pranz, I just googled "a number were" and got over 8,000 hits. I think maahey hit the nail on the head by pointing out the definite and indefinite articles in the example I pasted from MW. Those articles serve as markers for the choice of either the singular or plural verb. [And, pfranz, you didn't mean to write that nouns "modify" verbs, did you?]
Here are some of the examples from the first page of Google hits:
"A number were sold to producers for personal storage and others were re-adapted by the grain companies to store bulk fertilizers..."
" Among the latter, a number were to be stable constituents of a later codified repertory, whereas other tropes quickly became obsolete...."
"The Shire produced volumes of material and submissions which were put to the Commonwealth Grants Commission and a number were commented on and adopted by the..."
"Anstruther Captains were famed for their seafaring skills and later in the 19th Century a number were actively involved in trade across the oceans, several in..."
Now I ain't sayin' that everything that's listed in Google is grammatical by a long shot. But I think the examples above are ok. I'll now list one that I think might have a problem:
"A number were due to invalid HTML which, unfortunately, had not been spotten when the issue was released."
But since I don't know very much computer language, perhaps this 'spotten' is just a term of trade I haven't seen before.
And so that we won't just talk in circles, are you saying, pfranz, that the word number categorically cannot take a plural verb? If so, I think you're way off.
And, maahey, taking into consideration what you pointed out about the definite and indefinite articles, I suppose Faldage's original sentence would have to remain as it is--but I think it could have been written more clearly.
Edit: Here's something from an Audubon report, but I wonder why the word numbers wasn't used. Perhaps there was a typo--note the lack of 's' on 'specie':
December 21, 1996, the Capital Area Audubon Society hosted its Fifty-first CBC. Cold weather hit the mid-Michigan area early this year and most of the waterbirds had departed by Thanksgiving. By count day, not only were the lakes frozen but large distances on the Grand and Red Cedar Rivers were ice-covered. Count day there was snow on the ground and temperatures ranged from 7 to 34 degrees with a south wind at 15 (gusts to 25). The day's high occurred after most counting was finished and the wind seemed to have many of the birds hunkered down.
When the number were in, they were about what many of us would have predicted but there were some surprises. 56 species and 16,475 individuals were tallied. This was one more specie but 18% fewer individuals than 1995. The average number of species seen 1981-95 is 58 and the average number of individuals is 15,900. The below average number of species was not for lack of trying. Fifty-three birders logged 118.25 party hours (57.5 on foot and 60.75 by car) and traveled 653.25 party miles (53.05 on foot and 600.2 by car) in the field. Almost all of these are higher than last year. Additionally, 8 individuals logged 15 hours watching their feeders. Seven parties traveled 61.1 miles during 8.25 hours seeking owls.
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#99503
03/29/2003 11:20 AM
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(assuming you believe in rules for language use)Use language rule to-be for <singular> <singular> <plural> <plural3<continuing>> <possession>
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#99504
03/29/2003 12:08 PM
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Faldage,
What does your post mean?
<plural> <plural3<continuing>> <possession>
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#99505
03/29/2003 12:22 PM
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Translated into what passes for Modern English:
There's always rules for language use
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#99506
03/29/2003 11:09 PM
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WW, I'm as confused as you are.
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#99507
03/29/2003 11:18 PM
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 7,210
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I are confused as they is.
formerly known as etaoin...
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#99508
03/30/2003 1:06 PM
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 8
stranger
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stranger
Joined: Sep 2002
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Hi All, (and A Happy New year/Ugadi for all the Indian members)
An amateur's reasoning ;-).
Consider the examples given by Maahey:
[1] A number of members were absent
[2] The number of elderly is rising
In the Eg [1] - the subject is 'A number of' meaning MANY and hence plural. So it should be followed by a verb in plural form. Looking at Eg [2], 'The number of' takes the subject position, which is singular hence followed by a verb in singular form. This is one of the frequently asked Subject-Verb agreement type question on the TOEFL*.
And, if any of you are preparing for TOEFL, do visit the site - www.testmagic.com. They maintain an archive of TOEFL Essays and and also give grammatical tips for the same.
Hope this helps you.
*TOEFL - Test of English as a Foreign Language (www.toefl.org)
Kiran
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#99509
03/30/2003 5:11 PM
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Posts: 555
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A Happy New Year to you, Kiran!
Is the meaning of the word Ugadi, 'New Year'?
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#99510
03/31/2003 3:48 PM
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 6,296
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In response to pfranz's writing that " 'the number were' is just plain wrong," I contacted a grammar guru. I was fairly certain that in certain instances the word number would take a plural verb, but just wanted an authority to write about the subject.
In the meantime, I posted the definition from Merriam Webster that showed one instance in which number would take a plural verb, and maahey nailed the rule by pointing to the definite and indefinite article markers. I'll paste below my question to the guru and her response, which is pretty much identical to maahey's:
Hello.
I have a question about the word 'number.' I don't think I'm incorrect in
my thinking--but I may be. Are there times that the word 'number' would be
best followed by a plural verb? For instance, let's say there are groups of
people who behave differently upon being rained upon. Many go inside;
others seek shelter beneath tents; a good number go to the management of
the event to complain.
In that kind of instance--and other similar instances--wouldn't 'number'
take a plural verb?
Thanks for whatever clarification you may be able to provide.
Best regards,
XXXXXXXXXX
Hi XXXXXXXXXX,
As a collective noun "number" may take either a singular or a plural verb. It takes a singular verb when it is preceded by the definite article "the": The number of skilled workers is small. It takes a plural verb when preceded by the indefinite article "a": A number of the workers are unskilled. This would hold true for any beginning with "there": There are A number of ...." It also takes a plural verb when other references within the sentence are plural, such as in your example. The use of the plurals "many" and "others" (not to mention the article "a")would make "number" plural.
Linda
Linda M. DeVore
DeVore Desktop Design
Copyediting & Publishing
Ms. DeVore is a publisher of a grammar site and grammar rule of the week email.
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